Instagram     

Go Back   PNW Moto > Washington > Tri-Cities

Tri-Cities Rides, meetups, regional discussions | Tri-Cities, Walla Walla, Yakima, Ellensburg, Wenatchee

Like Tree30Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Feb 27th 2019, 04:57 PM   #61
 Chrishil54's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Kirkland

  2009 V-Star 1100 Custom
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Do you have any scientific evidence for this waste? Or is it just your opinion?
How about Metro themselves saying that their cost recovery from fares is 25%? Operational cost per rider, per trip on the sounder rail from Everett to Seattle is estimates at $38.54 but throw in capital costs it balloons to $298 per rider. The difference is from taxpayers, even if they don't use the system.
The tunnel cost 3x as much as the retrofit of the viaduct. That was in 2011, and we all know the costs exploded past that. Meanwhile, the cost of replacing the viaduct would have been less than the annual operational costs of the tunnel referenced in the above linked article.

Want me to keep going on governmental spending, or are you capable of seeing that they spend more money than needed? That is waste, plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
You question my assertion about graduated endorsements, ask for 'evidence?' Then say that we had better riders when we had graduated endorsements? Hmmm.
You need help with reading comprehension. What I said was "I started riding when they had this in the state and from my experience, what created better riders and saved lives was the riding courses people were taking before their endorsement.", which is very different than what you claim I said. Graduated licenses had zero to do with it. Education courses, which were done regardless of endorsement type. Just like now, there were two types of classes, the small bike provided by the school and your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
No, I don't hurt anybody by urging legislators, or anyone, to ignore a group of idiots who are both too stupid to understand how stupid are their goals and arrogant enough to think they speak for anybody but a small minority of riders.
I'd go into the psychology of this but you'd not understand it. Suffice it to say that texas is correct in his response. It does damage to all sides of the issue in the minds of the legislatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Urging riders to go helmet-less: I think it's fair to say this harms more riders than me urging our lawmakers (and others) to ignore/not-codify such blatantly bad advice.
As a long time rider, husband, father and grandfather, I believe it's foolish to ride without full gear at all times but if you want to do that, feel free. Just expect that you're going to be 100% financially liable. If one group supports legalizing helmetless riding, it doesn't mean you have to do the same. Instead of tearing down their efforts, why not tell your reps that you support it with the condition that helmetless riders be required to prove they can fund 100% of their medical care, for life, should they be in an accident?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
I've been riding a long time, been talking to riders of all types, people in the MC business for a long time. I know the opinions I've shard here ARE shared by the majority of riders.
Based on how you've flat out lied about what I said (as noted above), I have serious doubts about everything you said here. Add in the number of licensed, you would have had to talk to over 100,000 riders, which I doubt you've done. Even if you somehow managed to be 100% honest (doubtful) it still boils down to it being the opinions of people you've talked with, NOT the majority of riders.
[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Perhaps I'm overstating here, but your apparent defense of the fools at Abate, along with your near-exact quote of a portion of Eyman's platform . . . I'm not sure you're able to see the forest for the trees.
I'm not defending Abate but pointing out your own failings to help progress the cause of motorcycles in Washington. Maybe you are the one that can't see the forest because of your personal hatred of a riding group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
You, as he, appear to think that paved roads are the only viable means for which our transportation tax dollars are spent. I love that our road-tax dollars are spent on trains, buses, trails, etc I use all of these, I commute on my bicycle, I use the ferry to get to one of my favorite moto rides on the peninsula, I use the train to get to the airport, my family commutes everyday via the bus, and on and on.
No, I think that the money we pay for using any publicly funded project should go to that project. Putting it into words you might understand, you pay for what you use. Don't expect people who don't use something to pay for it. Should you pay for the internet connection of the orange Cheeto's Re-election headquarters or should they pay for it themselves?


Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
To others here defending abate: Please read the history of their efforts. Despite quite-recent attempts to gain credibility by appearing to broaden their legislative goals . . . the over-arching reason for their existance, their constant and PRIMARY goal has been and continues to be repeal of mandatory helmet laws.
I don't think we are defending Abate, but showing how your blatant dislike of them (justified or not), is counter productive to the advancement of motorcyclist causes in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
ABATE: A brotherhood against totalitarian enactments. Yes, that's right. They think helmet laws, open pipe laws, (and probably speed limits and blood-alcohol-while-driving/riding limits) are totalitarian. Sounds like an inert teenager bitching about "the man" when told by his mom to turn down the volume on his bedroom's stereo.
Abate's PRIMARY reason for existence is a lie. Adding apparent 'truths' to their lie, adding weak quests for more broadly-supported issues (such as parking and obscure weight fees) to their agenda . . . does not render their primary bullshit as credible. Reminds me of the ENAREAY.
Once again stating your opinion and views. Instead of telling people to ignore them try telling them that while they support some of the same things you do, then list the common areas and your own areas.
VeritasImageryNW and Akdawg like this.
Mar 2nd 2019, 08:26 AM   #62
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrishil54
How about Metro themselves saying that their cost recovery from fares is 25%? Operational cost per rider, per trip on the sounder rail from Everett to Seattle is estimates at $38.54 but throw in capital costs it balloons to $298 per rider. The difference is from taxpayers, even if they don't use the system.
The tunnel cost 3x as much as the retrofit of the viaduct. That was in 2011, and we all know the costs exploded past that. Meanwhile, the cost of replacing the viaduct would have been less than the annual operational costs of the tunnel referenced in the above linked article.

Want me to keep going on governmental spending, or are you capable of seeing that they spend more money than needed? That is waste, plain and simple.


You need help with reading comprehension. What I said was "I started riding when they had this in the state and from my experience, what created better riders and saved lives was the riding courses people were taking before their endorsement.", which is very different than what you claim I said. Graduated licenses had zero to do with it. Education courses, which were done regardless of endorsement type. Just like now, there were two types of classes, the small bike provided by the school and your own.


I'd go into the psychology of this but you'd not understand it. Suffice it to say that texas is correct in his response. It does damage to all sides of the issue in the minds of the legislatures.


As a long time rider, husband, father and grandfather, I believe it's foolish to ride without full gear at all times but if you want to do that, feel free. Just expect that you're going to be 100% financially liable. If one group supports legalizing helmetless riding, it doesn't mean you have to do the same. Instead of tearing down their efforts, why not tell your reps that you support it with the condition that helmetless riders be required to prove they can fund 100% of their medical care, for life, should they be in an accident?


Based on how you've flat out lied about what I said (as noted above), I have serious doubts about everything you said here. Add in the number of licensed, you would have had to talk to over 100,000 riders, which I doubt you've done. Even if you somehow managed to be 100% honest (doubtful) it still boils down to it being the opinions of people you've talked with, NOT the majority of riders.


I'm not defending Abate but pointing out your own failings to help progress the cause of motorcycles in Washington. Maybe you are the one that can't see the forest because of your personal hatred of a riding group.


No, I think that the money we pay for using any publicly funded project should go to that project. Putting it into words you might understand, you pay for what you use. Don't expect people who don't use something to pay for it. Should you pay for the internet connection of the orange Cheeto's Re-election headquarters or should they pay for it themselves?



I don't think we are defending Abate, but showing how your blatant dislike of them (justified or not), is counter productive to the advancement of motorcyclist causes in general.


Once again stating your opinion and views. Instead of telling people to ignore them try telling them that while they support some of the same things you do, then list the common areas and your own areas.
Let me see if I can paraphrase you correctly, this time:

Blah, blah, blah, condescending double-speak, psycho-babble, not defending but defending abate, Eyman-esque anti-tax bullshit (again? yawn) masquerading as an informed view.

I've attended an abate rally. They're a joke.

Based on your previous statements here, I'll presume you're one to bitch about the government's sad adherence to the quests of narrowly focused special interest groups, right? Representing themselves, but not the overall public good, right?

That's what abate is. They represent themselves. They don't represent me, nor the bulk of motorcycle riders. That they appear to promote some issues on which we all agree, does not grant them any cred, not when they've self-titled with idiocy, not when 90% of their efforts have been for ONE issue that I vehemently oppose. A group that promotes the abolition of our most basic laws, attempts to influence future riders to not wearing a helmet . . . idiots and fools.

Abate tried to argue that helmets cause more harm than good. Whatever. Like RJ Reynolds claiming that non-smokers got more lung cancer than did smokers.

https://www.hupy.com/news/abate-of-w...lmet-study.cfm

$5 brain, buy a $5 helmet.
No brain . . . well, there ya go.

We can (and have) done much better than to listen to, donate $$ or otherwise support their idiocy.

More recently, some state chapters of Abate have hitched their wagons to the AMA, regarding creation our next generation of new riders, advocating for more off-road access and for legislation promoting general motorcycle safety. How this jibes with their ongoing goal against helmets . . . Good for them, maybe they're on the right track. I'll begin to support Abate's other causes as soon as they drop their anti-helmet/open-pipe schtick.

Going forward, here are my suggestions for the most bang for the buck, if you wish to be involved. A few groups staffed with intelligence and understanding and goals inline with the bulk of the motorcycling world:

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com
https://www.bmwmoa.org
https://www.mic.org/#/gov-relations
https://motorcyclecaucus-burgess.house.gov
Mar 2nd 2019, 09:28 AM   #63
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2013 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 Harlequin
There is a 'thing' that may be called the non-military functions of war - NMFoW.
Bottom line of NMFoW is that war serves a very important cultural/industrial function, and that is WASTE.
We have far too much industrial capacity and it would be ruinous to profits if we could not waste most of it.
Of course, this is ridiculous. We could use the excess to house, feed, and care for, you know, everyone.
But, as a culture we are not ready for that.
The old values of "earn your keep" are still very much in play.
However, new values are being expressed in the world. Our tolerance for the old values is waning.
IMO this new value/energy is what the other poster was trying to express with the long list of government fuckery.
The specifics don't really matter.
The old system of waste and profit is dying, making way for new values of life and harmony and compassion.
And those who hold to "old/traditional" values serve an important function - that of the sea anchor.
Transitions can be a bitch - mostly to the extent you resist them.
All hands have a role to play here.
It really is beautiful.
</sermon>
uhoh likes this.
Mar 2nd 2019, 09:32 AM   #64
 
  Dec 2018
  Goldendale WA

  Classic Sportsters, Triumph & BSA
Perhaps you should spend of your time looking into what ABATE is supporting or not. There is nothing in ABATEs agenda addressing open pipes. ABATE has not opposed the pending legislation on vehicle exhaust modification or mandatory insurance for motorcycles. The AMA has an active policy and position paper on helmet choice as ABATE.
Mar 2nd 2019, 01:06 PM   #65
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akdawg
Perhaps you should spend of your time looking into what ABATE is supporting or not. There is nothing in ABATEs agenda addressing open pipes. ABATE has not opposed the pending legislation on vehicle exhaust modification or mandatory insurance for motorcycles. The AMA has an active policy and position paper on helmet choice as ABATE.
Maybe not this year, in WA. Of what state do you speak? The AMA, having a position paper on helmet choice, is hardly the same as Abate arguing that helmets cause more injury than they prevent.
Additionally, the AMA's position is also to "strongly encourage(s) the use of personal protective equipment, including gloves, sturdy footwear and a properly fitted motorcycle helmet certified by its manufacturer to meet the DOT standard."

Abate's position on helmets isn't nearly as assertively worded, except when they're arguing against them.

Abate of PA's statement is a good summation of their nationwide stance: "A.B.A.T.E. of PA does not support laws mandating the use of helmet by responsible adult motorcycle riders and passengers. We do not oppose laws requiring helmets for inexperienced or minor riders."

Last year:

ABATE of California: sought to repeal CA's motorcycle noise law
Abate of Indiana: sought to repeal IN's modified exhaust law.
Abate of Colorado: Stated position is against CO's modified exhaust law
Abate of Arizona: Sought repeal of modified AZ's exhaust law

These are the four easiest to find. And time is short on this beautiful day. I'm making an experienced guess here: Any state with exhaust noise laws and an Abate chapter: Abate's stated legislative agenda is to repeal such laws.

ABATE's agenda IS for repealing helmet and pipe laws. It's why they exist. I tell you what: Please find an Abate chapter that's never had pipe or helmet laws on their legislative agenda. Perhaps, year to year, state to state, they may put their primary agenda on the shelf, either because of recent losses or because they know the 2-year cycle of legislation/elections is not in their favor.

But they always come back to it.

Edited by FireDave on Mar 2nd 2019 at 01:09 PM
Mar 3rd 2019, 07:30 AM   #66
 tod701's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Stanwood

For Washington State offroad (and dualsport) issues, don't forget the Northwest Motorcycle Association.

https://www.nmaoffroad.org/
Mar 3rd 2019, 10:04 AM   #67
 
  Dec 2018
  Goldendale WA

  Classic Sportsters, Triumph & BSA
What the other state ABATE are doing is their deal. ABATE of Washington's last involvement with noise was 10-15 years ago allowing modification of motorcycle exhaust on off road bikes. The helmet thing is about choice, for those that would choose to ride without. Not my choice certainly, personally I'm ATGATT. ABATE would probably welcome your input on legislative issues.
Mar 4th 2019, 04:59 PM   #68
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akdawg
What the other state ABATE are doing is their deal. ABATE of Washington's last involvement with noise was 10-15 years ago allowing modification of motorcycle exhaust on off road bikes. The helmet thing is about choice, for those that would choose to ride without. Not my choice certainly, personally I'm ATGATT. ABATE would probably welcome your input on legislative issues.
Perhaps:

Their January 2017 newsletter rails against the Feds and Washington's exhaust modification laws, first declaring that track-use should be exempt (with that I agree), but then broadens the rant to street bikes. They appear to believe that pollution laws governing bike exhaust are 'totalitarian.' Further, it's just another veiled attempt to withdraw noise/pipe laws, to allow open pipes on street bikes.

Am I cynical? Not really, I know their history, I know their MO regarding legislative goals.

"Bikers and the MRF are hopeful that, with a more industry-friendly EPA under President-Elect Trump, this issue will be swiftly dealt with and passage of the RPM Act will be realized next year."

It just struck me, another reason I feel Abate is not doing us any favors in Olympia or DC: They bring an overt and constant 'victim mentality' to all their work. "Woe is us, all us poor mis-understood and benevolent bikers. Yes, we dress like we're HA's and Mongols, but we're all really nice people, just tired of being stepped-on by the man."

You can't miss it, it's rife in their legislative reports, a boringly repetitive feature of many of the monthly chapter reports.

I've said this before: If you don't want to be perceived as, treated as the more notorious RICO-investigated criminal organizations . . . perhaps you should consider not dressing, riding, doing everything you can to look as they.
MarvTravis likes this.
Mar 5th 2019, 08:35 AM   #69
 
  Dec 2018
  Goldendale WA

  Classic Sportsters, Triumph & BSA
Isn't it about two wheels and an engine? ABATE would welcome input and support from other rider groups. Personally I've been working on this issue for the past three years and would like to think I'm not the lone voice and making some progress in the image change. As I said in a previous post here this image thing has been going on since the beginning of motorcycling. HA or Mongels, aren't involved with ABATE of Washington, perhaps some as individuals. Yes, many ABATE members wear vests with patches and pins. So do the Gold Wingers and HOG riders. I see Beemer riders with patches and pins, sport bikers with billboard leathers. You think the insane sport bike lane splitters are helping our cause? But, right now it's the "clubs" that offer a united voice to the legislation ABATE puts forward. Note that ABATE of Washington offered no opposition to the vehicle exhaust modification bill currently before the legislature as well as mandatory motorcycle insurance. I've been told by a friend in Oregon that of the city transportation plans being submitted only one city (eastern OR somewhere) even mention the word motorcycle. Seattle's Master Transportation Plan only mentions the word motorcycle once, bicycle 286 times. I would hope this would give cause to all who ride or hope to continue riding cause for concern. Things change with time, to beat the drums of the past without helping with change isn't very productive.
Hachi likes this.
Reply

  PNW Moto > Washington > Tri-Cities

Tags
legislative, update



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Olympia Update Texasl Motorcycles 41 Apr 12th 2019 04:56 AM
Boggan's Oasis Update VegasWolf Tri-Cities 2 Dec 1st 2017 12:17 PM
HWY 20 update Eastview Bellingham 19 May 25th 2017 07:52 AM
NMA 2017 Legislative Session Update tod701 Adventure Riding 2 Feb 23rd 2017 09:44 AM




Copyright © 2019 PNW Moto. All rights reserved.