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Sep 25th 2019, 10:33 PM   #1
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia

  MV Agusta F3 800
Submitting VINs to the police during track day and racing events...

Nobody likes a motorcycle thief.

And many of us have worked very hard to pay for our motorcycles.

But what if someone takes a stolen motorcycle to the track? They don't care if they crash- it's not their bike. And if they crash, they may take you out also. To you or I, being taken out by someone on a stolen motorcycle would represent a significant financial cost...but it costs them nothing, because it's not their bike, so why should they care in the slightest about being careful around you?

I surfaced this issue many years ago, which resulted in a surprising amount of panic amongst people who, for the lack of a better description, I would not trust any further than I could throw them.

VINs are not in any way secret. They are clearly visible, by design, for this exact reason. And me personally, I don't care if anyone looks at the VIN on my motorcycle- after all, it's my motorcycle- I have nothing to hide.

I believe that verifying VINs during tech, and making that information available to police to check for stolen motorcycles, would make track days and racing more safe for those of us that are not on stolen motorcycles. It may put more motorcycle thieves in prison. It may result in stolen motorcycles being returned to their lawful owners. It may reduce motorcycle theft, because if you can't use them on the street, and you can't use them on the track, there's not much else you can do with them. And ALL of these things, would tend to reduce motorcycle insurance rates.

So what say ye?
Daboo likes this.
Sep 26th 2019, 01:27 AM   #2
 Oregon Motorcycle's Avatar
 
  Mar 2019
  oregon

I’d love to see some junky/thief on a bike at track day lol. I don’t think the local thieves are signing up for track days...

Some race bikes don’t have VINs. And some track junkies can’t even track down the pink slip if they wanted. Even though the bike isn’t stolen. I’m well versed in tracking lost titles and it’s a pain.

You’ll never stop bikes from being stolen. California is trying harder than most by now including the motors serial number on the registration. This is a good step, but doesn’t really solve the problem. It just makes another part of a stolen bike trash.

Frame swaps are easy to accomplish cheaply on older sport bikes which are perfect track bikes. For example someone could steal my bike bike and frame swap for about 400 bucks. They’d have a clean title bike in their name for very lil effort.

I hate thieves. I’ve had a car stolen and have had 2 motorcycles stolen. It sucks. The first motorcycle I had stolen affected me pretty bad. I worked so hard to get that bike. Literally put everything I had into it to get it. Was a new CBR and I was like 22 or something.... Police told me right on the spot that I would never see it again. The second bike that was stolen, I didn’t even call the cops lol.

Want to stop thieves? Never let your bike out of your sight!
craiger likes this.

Edited by Oregon Motorcycle on Sep 26th 2019 at 02:17 AM
Sep 26th 2019, 06:07 AM   #3
 MikeMikeMike's Avatar
 
  Feb 2016
  Seattle

They absolutely should check VINs and Submit them to law enforcement. But the track day orgs aren’t exactly rolling in money these days so status quo it shall be. I just assume any clapped out bike at a track day probably has a series of bills of sale that start from either a stolen bike, or a bike that some finance company would really like to have back...
MV Man likes this.
Sep 26th 2019, 07:36 AM   #4
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia

  MV Agusta F3 800
Nobody said anything about titles, registrations, bills of sale, or requiring anyone to prove ownership. Just verifying VINs, so that the police can see if they are listed as stolen. I'm sure that the lawful owner of any stolen motorcycles, would like to have them back, and it does happen.

ALL production-based motorcycles had VINs when they rolled off the assembly line, and it is a crime to tamper with a VIN even if it's just a track bike. The only reason anyone would remove or tamper a VIN anyway, would be because the bike was stolen.
Sep 26th 2019, 07:37 AM   #5
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
The track day providers could require an uploaded, close-up photo of the VIN during online registration, subject to verification at any time during the day, or to be submitted to LEO's. VIN must also be entered into a field within the online registration form. And it must match the image you submit.

In-person registration: VIN will be checked.

Sure, you could dodge this bullet by submitting a stock VIN pic and hope they don't check it during tech or the rest of the day . . . but it would still be a deterrent for those with bikes of questionable ancestry.

Some VIN-check websites, those hosted by law enforcement or otherwise, accept multiple submissions at once. It would be a small step for the Track-Day Provider to sort their rider's VIN submissions into one file, submit them all at once. 5 minutes.

https://www.nicb.org/vincheck

https://www.stolenmotorcycleregistry...forserials.php
MV Man likes this.

Edited by FireDave on Sep 26th 2019 at 07:45 AM
Sep 26th 2019, 01:13 PM   #6
 
  Jan 2016
  Redmond, WA

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
The track day providers could require an uploaded, close-up photo of the VIN during online registration, subject to verification at any time during the day, or to be submitted to LEO's. VIN must also be entered into a field within the online registration form. And it must match the image you submit.

In-person registration: VIN will be checked.

Sure, you could dodge this bullet by submitting a stock VIN pic and hope they don't check it during tech or the rest of the day . . . but it would still be a deterrent for those with bikes of questionable ancestry.

Some VIN-check websites, those hosted by law enforcement or otherwise, accept multiple submissions at once. It would be a small step for the Track-Day Provider to sort their rider's VIN submissions into one file, submit them all at once. 5 minutes.

https://www.nicb.org/vincheck

https://www.stolenmotorcycleregistry...forserials.php
The first site says 5 searches per IP address in a 24 hour period. The second I didn't sign up for but assume you'd have to enter each one individually or batch in 5's or something.

There's an assumption that law enforcement wants to receive 120 VINs at a time and has the manpower to do the check on all of them and then give you a response in a reasonable amount of time. I can tell you with certainty that there is no manpower to do this at the law enforcement level. I also run an FFL and as soon as the state laws changed that required local law enforcement to do background checks on all firearm transfers, they stated they would attempt to abide by the requested 10 day limit but made no promises. Some departments have sent back requests within 10 days but city of Seattle PD averages 12-14 days. In this situation, who is going to run all the VINs within an 8 hour period and respond before the track day is over?

I've been doing track events for the past 9 years here in WA. In my experience, we have not had a situation with a stolen motorcycle being used at an event. I'm having a hard time understanding why a VIN check is something you would use to fight motorcycle theft at a track event. As for safety on the track and not caring about their motorcycle - it's our job to make sure the event is safe and unsafe riding is certainly dealt with. It's impossible to police every single person at every single corner at every single lap at every single event but we do our best. Even people who rightfully own their motorcycles can care little about it and crashing. Plenty of $500 bikes on the track that the owners built on a budget or run what you brung guys.

Just saying... If you have concerns about an individual, notify the authorities. The track day provider doesn't have any authority to detain the individual or the motorcycle. They'd be stepping into a whole lot of legal soup.
Sep 26th 2019, 01:44 PM   #7
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanjtc73n
The first site says 5 searches per IP address in a 24 hour period. The second I didn't sign up for but assume you'd have to enter each one individually or batch in 5's or something.

There's an assumption that law enforcement wants to receive 120 VINs at a time and has the manpower to do the check on all of them and then give you a response in a reasonable amount of time. I can tell you with certainty that there is no manpower to do this at the law enforcement level. I also run an FFL and as soon as the state laws changed that required local law enforcement to do background checks on all firearm transfers, they stated they would attempt to abide by the requested 10 day limit but made no promises. Some departments have sent back requests within 10 days but city of Seattle PD averages 12-14 days. In this situation, who is going to run all the VINs within an 8 hour period and respond before the track day is over?

I've been doing track events for the past 9 years here in WA. In my experience, we have not had a situation with a stolen motorcycle being used at an event. I'm having a hard time understanding why a VIN check is something you would use to fight motorcycle theft at a track event. As for safety on the track and not caring about their motorcycle - it's our job to make sure the event is safe and unsafe riding is certainly dealt with. It's impossible to police every single person at every single corner at every single lap at every single event but we do our best. Even people who rightfully own their motorcycles can care little about it and crashing. Plenty of $500 bikes on the track that the owners built on a budget or run what you brung guys.

Just saying... If you have concerns about an individual, notify the authorities. The track day provider doesn't have any authority to detain the individual or the motorcycle. They'd be stepping into a whole lot of legal soup.
Nobody is 'running the VINs.' It's not like an LEO is sitting at his MDC and punching them all in, one by one.

It's one file being compared to another file. by the computer.

I guarantee you've seen a stolen bike at a track day. Maybe you didn't know it was stolen. For you to assert no 'situation involving a stolen bike' . . . maybe there's been no 'situation,' but, otherwise, how can you be sure every bike present was properly owned?

I'm my experience, wherever, whenever you see 150 bikes in one spot, it's highly probable you're looking at two or four stolen bikes. Particularly at a track day where many of them are unregistered.

How many on PNWmoto have purchased a 'bill-of-sale-only" bike? Or one with a lost title, or a salvage title? These are frequent sources of hot property, since the seller knows the bike will likely remain similarly un-documented.

Regarding my two links. They're examples. I'm sure there are resources available that will search a file of a hundred VINs; I know the same exists for firearm's and bicycle's serial numbers. The two services I listed: If a track day provider or local PD asked them to expand the search field from 5 to 100 vins, I'll bet they would accommodate, if you made it worth their while.

The premise of the OP was to check VINs as a deterrent to riders bringing stolen bikes to the track. Seizing or detaining isn't really on the table. Further, the track owners could also implement such a policy, requiring that all on-track vehicles provide a report of a clear VIN/clear title as part of the entrance requirement.
Either the owner or provider can blame it on their insurance companies. That's their MO for every other rule that dictates they be assholes/gestapo/tight-asses about some innocuous behavior or another.

Are stolen track bikes or cars enough of problem to warrant such polices? IDK, but bikes are stolen at a rate 10x greater than cars, much easier to part-out, much less work to swap frames, engines or other parts to mask the deception. I think a moto-track-day-VIN-check process WOULD result in an incremental increase in safety.
MV Man likes this.
Sep 26th 2019, 02:36 PM   #8
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanjtc73n
There's an assumption that law enforcement wants to receive 120 VINs at a time and has the manpower to do the check on all of them and then give you a response in a reasonable amount of time. I can tell you with certainty that there is no manpower to do this at the law enforcement level.
I'm not sure why you think you could assure such a thing. I am a police officer AND a motorcyclist, and I can assure you that I'll find the time to run the VINs. I've recovered stolen motorcycles just by seeing one unattended and stopping to run the VIN.

Quote:
In this situation, who is going to run all the VINs within an 8 hour period and respond before the track day is over?
I would.

Quote:
I've been doing track events for the past 9 years here in WA. In my experience, we have not had a situation with a stolen motorcycle being used at an event.
How would you know whether a stolen motorcycle was there or not, if nobody checked?

Quote:
I'm having a hard time understanding why a VIN check is something you would use to fight motorcycle theft at a track event.
Many stolen motorcycles have been recovered by the police at track days.

Quote:
As for safety on the track and not caring about their motorcycle - it's our job to make sure the event is safe and unsafe riding is certainly dealt with. It's impossible to police every single person at every single corner at every single lap at every single event but we do our best. Even people who rightfully own their motorcycles can care little about it and crashing. Plenty of $500 bikes on the track that the owners built on a budget or run what you brung guys.
Get serious- who do you think is going to be more careful on track- the police officer on his $15,000 MV Agusta, or the unemployed pot-head on the stolen R6?

Quote:
The track day provider doesn't have any authority to detain the individual or the motorcycle.
Nobody said anything about track day providers detaining anyone or anything. You're inventing problems.

Edited by MV Man on Sep 26th 2019 at 02:39 PM
Sep 26th 2019, 02:40 PM   #9
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Nobody is 'running the VINs.' It's not like an LEO is sitting at his MDC and punching them all in, one by one.

It's one file being compared to another file. by the computer.

I guarantee you've seen a stolen bike at a track day. Maybe you didn't know it was stolen. For you to assert no 'situation involving a stolen bike' . . . maybe there's been no 'situation,' but, otherwise, how can you be sure every bike present was properly owned?

I'm my experience, wherever, whenever you see 150 bikes in one spot, it's highly probable you're looking at two or four stolen bikes. Particularly at a track day where many of them are unregistered.

How many on PNWmoto have purchased a 'bill-of-sale-only" bike? Or one with a lost title, or a salvage title? These are frequent sources of hot property, since the seller knows the bike will likely remain similarly un-documented.

Regarding my two links. They're examples. I'm sure there are resources available that will search a file of a hundred VINs; I know the same exists for firearm's and bicycle's serial numbers. The two services I listed: If a track day provider or local PD asked them to expand the search field from 5 to 100 vins, I'll bet they would accommodate, if you made it worth their while.

The premise of the OP was to check VINs as a deterrent to riders bringing stolen bikes to the track. Seizing or detaining isn't really on the table. Further, the track owners could also implement such a policy, requiring that all on-track vehicles provide a report of a clear VIN/clear title as part of the entrance requirement.
Either the owner or provider can blame it on their insurance companies. That's their MO for every other rule that dictates they be assholes/gestapo/tight-asses about some innocuous behavior or another.

Are stolen track bikes or cars enough of problem to warrant such polices? IDK, but bikes are stolen at a rate 10x greater than cars, much easier to part-out, much less work to swap frames, engines or other parts to mask the deception. I think a moto-track-day-VIN-check process WOULD result in an incremental increase in safety.
I guess if I'd read your post first, it would have saved me some time typing, lol.
Sep 26th 2019, 03:28 PM   #10
 Oregon Motorcycle's Avatar
 
  Mar 2019
  oregon

Quote:
Originally Posted by MV Man
Get serious- who do you think is going to be more careful on track- the police officer on his $15,000 MV Agusta, or the unemployed pot-head on the stolen R6?
Fucking spit my beer out and dropped my joint laughing so hard at this
Sep 26th 2019, 04:49 PM   #11
 Pavement Tested's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seabeck

  '08 GSX1300R, '06 GSX-R 750, '17 KTM 690 Duke
Fuck that. It's all fun and games until the mandated VIN check reveals a stolen bike that was purchased BOS as a track bike, with the express intent to be used as such. Maybe that bike was stolen 2, 3 or 4 owners ago. Now the current owner is fucked due to being in possession of stolen property.

VINs may be readily visible on some bikes but I'm pretty sure a LEO needs some sort of probabale cause to run it. That would be like saying it's cool for a cop to walk up to a random person and take their name and run them for wants or warrants for shits and gigs.

I'm getting pretty tired of "government officials" violating people's privacy just because something is "public record" or is in view due to the fact they went looking for it or my favorite, because some hypersensitive snowflake makes a totally unfounded complaint because they didn't like what they saw.
Sep 26th 2019, 05:37 PM   #12
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavement Tested
Fuck that. It's all fun and games until the mandated VIN check reveals a stolen bike that was purchased BOS as a track bike, with the express intent to be used as such. Maybe that bike was stolen 2, 3 or 4 owners ago. Now the current owner is fucked due to being in possession of stolen property.

VINs may be readily visible on some bikes but I'm pretty sure a LEO needs some sort of probabale cause to run it. That would be like saying it's cool for a cop to walk up to a random person and take their name and run them for wants or warrants for shits and gigs.

I'm getting pretty tired of "government officials" violating people's privacy just because something is "public record" or is in view due to the fact they went looking for it or my favorite, because some hypersensitive snowflake makes a totally unfounded complaint because they didn't like what they saw.
Recovering a stolen bike is violating someone's privacy?

Your bike was stolen, are you just going to let the 3rd-owner-post-theft just keep it? Possession of stolen property is a crime in itself. If an owner didn't do his/her due-diligence prior to purchase, and they end up with a stolen bike, then that's they're crime. Cry me a river, try to tell the law that you're innocent.

Back to reality: If a private property owner is allowing you (for a fee) to play on that land, then the owner is free to stipulate that you do a back handspring prior entry, if that's his thing.
Or he can require you document that your vehicle is properly owned before he adopts the (slight) risk of appearing to encourage lawbreakers to possess stolen property on HIS land.

You can agree, or not attend. Has nothing to do with law enforcement.
MikeMikeMike and MV Man like this.
Sep 26th 2019, 06:06 PM   #13
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavement Tested
Fuck that. It's all fun and games until the mandated VIN check reveals a stolen bike that was purchased BOS as a track bike, with the express intent to be used as such. Maybe that bike was stolen 2, 3 or 4 owners ago. Now the current owner is fucked due to being in possession of stolen property.
The "current owner" is the guy that the motorcycle was originally stolen from. Everyone that possessed it afterwards, is just another felon.

There's an important life lesson in there somewhere. I would NEVER purchase a vehicle unless the person offering it for sale, could prove that they actually own it. There's no legitimate reason for a seller to not have a valid title for a production-based motorcycle, and it better have his name on it. Anyone that purchases a vehicle otherwise, is choosing to invite life-changing risk into their lives.

Quote:
VINs may be readily visible on some bikes but I'm pretty sure a LEO needs some sort of probabale cause to run it.
Nope. That's one of the reasons they're made to be visible. I've recovered MANY stolen vehicles, just by stopping and running the VIN. The owners of those stolen vehicles have always been quite happy that I got their vehicle back for them.

Quote:
That would be like saying it's cool for a cop to walk up to a random person and take their name and run them for wants or warrants for shits and gigs.
When I'm driving down the street, if I see a known shitbird, I run them. If they have warrants, I stop and hook them up.

Quote:
I'm getting pretty tired of "government officials" violating people's privacy just because something is "public record" or is in view due to the fact they went looking for it...
If the world worked the way that you wanted it to (and it I can assure you that it does not work the way that you want it to), all that a motorcycle thief would have to do, is to fence the motorcycle he stole, and the fence would then legally own it. To borrow a phrase, Fuck that.

Edited by MV Man on Sep 26th 2019 at 06:08 PM
Sep 26th 2019, 06:12 PM   #14
 Pavement Tested's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seabeck

  '08 GSX1300R, '06 GSX-R 750, '17 KTM 690 Duke
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Recovering a stolen bike is violating someone's privacy?

Your bike was stolen, are you just going to let the 3rd-owner-post-theft just keep it? Possession of stolen property is a crime in itself. If an owner didn't do his/her due-diligence prior to purchase, and they end up with a stolen bike, then that's they're crime. Cry me a river, try to tell the law that you're innocent.

Back to reality: If a private property owner is allowing you (for a fee) to play on that land, then the owner is free to stipulate that you do a back handspring prior entry, if that's his thing.
Or he can require you document that your vehicle is properly owned before he adopts the (slight) risk of appearing to encourage lawbreakers to possess stolen property on HIS land.

You can agree, or not attend. Has nothing to do with law enforcement.
So, by your metric, you research the history of every item you purchase that may or may not have a unique identification number, thru say craigslist or Ebay or FB market place or from a friend or from a track day buddy or whoever?

What about parts? You run the numbers on a frame or engine from a part out? Say I built my bike with parts sourced from far and wide. Now I'm a thief?

Get off your high horse and come back to reality yourself. You're kidding yourself if you think anything you said is reality. Sure if a land owner wants to place those types of restrictions on their events they better be willing to lose business because the customer base is going to go away, honest or otherwise.

People like you who are willing to give up your freedoms for a little bit of perceived security deserve neither.
Sep 26th 2019, 06:25 PM   #15
 unicykle's Avatar
 
  Sep 2017
  milwaukie oregon

  gsxr600 gsxr750 gsxr1000 i like gsxrs
Pretty sure most stolen bikes get parted out, the ammount of thieves who steal a bike so they can do track days on it is so small its got a decimal point in front of it. Be better of forcing ebay to police the parts section which wont happen either.
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