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Jan 30th 2016, 11:58 PM   #16
 Geek's Avatar
Promised a free pony!
 
  Jan 2016
  Tacoma

  Poorly
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Okay I'm gonna bite here and throw out real numbers. Say the average Motorsport photographer charges $20 per download (some charge more, some less), now they go out and shoot 2500 pictures. Of those let's say 50% are keepers, that gives you around 1200 pictures that are sellable. Now multiply that by $20. This is the potential dollar figure that Jason is asking someone to give away. True, I don't think any of us that does this professionally has ever sold 1200 pictures from an event, but these are still potential sales. Unless they are given away.

Then add into this the fact that most racers are cash strapped, and many won't buy pictures anyway (and as was pointed out above "Free photos available...How many racers would see this as a way to save a bit of coin and still end up with photos?"). Can you see why those of us that do this as a business see it as a bad idea? This will, in the long run, hurt those photographers that are out there shooting to make money, including Jason.


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Right... so him taking someone out to teach is the same thing as a professional photographer trying to make a living.. ok.. I guess my understanding is different then yours.
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Jan 31st 2016, 12:32 AM   #17
 Zoomie's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Kirkland

I get what you're saying, and I can appreciate your business acumen.
I kinda see this as a barber college, beauty school, type of thing, get your hair cut for cheap but no guarantees on quality. (Or if you get out with your ears intact)
Not sure how much quality (damage) one might do with a 200mm budget set up.
You're a pro and you know what goes into shooting those quality images you guys produce.
High praise to Jason for offering to share his knowledge and experience.
Perhaps the results should be offered at a discounted rate, or priced based on quality?

That being said, who wants to volunteer to learn how to mount tires? And more importantly who wants to offer up their wheels for us to practice on?
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Jan 31st 2016, 05:15 AM   #18
 JasonTanaka's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Bothell WA

1. For the "student" this IS a learning opportunity. Not a money making opportunity.
2. If a newbie track photog's photos threaten the income of other "pro" photogs, those "pro" photogs should evaluate the quality of their "pro" images they are peddling. Maybe take a class or two.
Jan 31st 2016, 07:02 AM   #19
 
  Jan 2016
  Renton

Why all the HATE going towards Jason??? Geez, He is giving back to his Photo community and the Racers. How does this hurt anyone in the Photo industry?

So should I charge people that need help in Supermoto? I think not. Myself and others are giving back to our communities. Why is it so hard for some to allow people to help others for no gains?

So to you Photographers hating on Jason, why is it you want to charge a organization to come out and take pics and then you sell those pics to the riders/racers but yet you were paid to come out there? Makes no sense to me at all but you being there at no cost and then selling said pics makes sense to me.
Jan 31st 2016, 08:14 AM   #20
 yard sale's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Your moms

  with reckless abandon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debi
Why all the HATE going towards Jason??? Geez, He is giving back to his Photo community and the Racers. How does this hurt anyone in the Photo industry?

So should I charge people that need help in Supermoto? I think not. Myself and others are giving back to our communities. Why is it so hard for some to allow people to help others for no gains?

So to you Photographers hating on Jason, why is it you want to charge a organization to come out and take pics and then you sell those pics to the riders/racers but yet you were paid to come out there? Makes no sense to me at all but you being there at no cost and then selling said pics makes sense to me.
1. Jason is good at what he goes. That breeds haters just ask Lance Armstrong
2. Really only see one hater and he/she is likely a hack.
3. If I owned a camera or knew dick about taking pics I'd be all over this.
Jan 31st 2016, 08:26 AM   #21
 Geek's Avatar
Promised a free pony!
 
  Jan 2016
  Tacoma

  Poorly
Quote:
Originally Posted by yard sale
1. Jason is good at what he goes. That breeds haters just ask Lance Armstrong
2. Really only see one hater and he/she is likely a hack.
3. I own a camera and know how to take dick pics all over the track. I'd love to learn from a pro
Fixed that for you
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Jan 31st 2016, 08:49 AM   #22
 yard sale's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Your moms

  with reckless abandon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geek
Fixed that for you
Tanaka sends you a ton of dick pics too?
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Jan 31st 2016, 09:04 AM   #23
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
If you have actually read what I have posted you would see that I'm not "hating" on Jason for mentoring other photographers. My only issue has been the requirement to give all of their pictures away.

As far as "competition" goes, I have been a major proponent of allowing more photographers on track because the more people shooting, the more options for the riders. Plus, the competition is good for us as well. To that extent I have turned down several "exclusive" contracts that would prevent other photogs from being on track.

And my issues with giving pictures away comes from personal experience. I've been shooting since the days of film, and the greatest damage to the career of freelance photography has been the devaluing of the skill it takes, through technology that makes it easier to take adequate pictures, and then those people that are willing to give their pictures away for free.

There was a time when magazines and newspapers were willing to actually pay for pictures of news stories. Now, newspapers are actually laying off their photogs because they can just provide their writers with cell phones, or get pictures from the public for free. I have had several magazines and organizations approach me to use my pictures. But the moment I bring up price I get the standard response: "We are willing to give you credit for the pictures." Credit doesn't pay the bills. No other service would allow "credit" as payment. You couldn't hire a plumber to fix your sink and then say "instead of paying you real money, I will tell everyone you did this, and you can get more jobs from it."

Another example is that just a couple years ago I was asked to shoot at the Kart races in Spanaway. They were thrilled because they had never had a photographer. Sales were great. The next race there was a kid with a low end dslr and kit lens shooting. I gave him some pointers on camera setup and composition. After that race I noticed that my sales were 1/3 of what they were before. After asking around I found out that the kid was giving his pictures away, and the racers told me that even though my pictures were better, his were "good enough" and free. Free adequate pictures will win over costly quality pictures. Especially when dealing with racers who are cash strapped.

So I'm all for mentoring upcoming photogs. I'm all for having many photogs on track. But I am against giving pictures away, especially being required to give them away. I stand by the statement that if your pictures are good enough for people to want, then they are good enough to charge for, even a nominal charge.


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Jan 31st 2016, 12:42 PM   #24
 JasonTanaka's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Bothell WA

When you post your photos on websites such as this, are you not giving your work away?
Jan 31st 2016, 01:10 PM   #25
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonTanaka
When you post your photos on websites such as this, are you not giving your work away?

Technically no, because the rights have not been given. Members of this forum cannot legally download and use any of the pictures here. To do so is actually a federal crime with penalties up to $30,000 per image stolen. You should know that as a professional photographer. You do not lose legal rights to your images when you post them on the Internet. Some social media sites do say that posting pictures to their site gives them, but not the general users, rights to those images.

Now if I posted a picture and then said "Go ahead and download this picture and use it as you want." Then I have legally "given my work away."

There is a reason why our SmugMug pages give us the option of selling Personal, or Commercial licenses with our downloads. Each license outlines what the purchaser is legally allowed to do with that image.


Sent via iPhone
Jan 31st 2016, 04:45 PM   #26
 JasonTanaka's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Bothell WA

Right. Since you don't give away any of your work, everyone that has ever used any of your posted photos online are in violation and must remove any of the said photos, right?

Everyone hear that?

.

Edited by JasonTanaka on Jan 31st 2016 at 05:10 PM
Jan 31st 2016, 05:22 PM   #27
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Photographing Road Racing

I have only had a couple of people who have used my photos without permission. Everyone else has purchased them. When I have encountered pictures of mine used without purchase I have contacted the user and asked them to either purchase them or remove them. I also use the opportunity to teach people about copyright laws. So far I have had cooperation with everyone I have talked with. Once a person purchases a download from me that can post, or print, them at will.

And I have never said that I haven't provided pictures to some organizations at little, or no, cost,on a very limited basis. I have not given pictures to individuals.

I have given my reasons why I think the general offer is a good idea, and why I think that requiring the "student" to give away their pictures is a bad idea. You don't have to like it. I refuse to continue to post on this subject, nor bite into the drama that is being drummed up.


Sent via iPhone

Edited by VeritasImageryNW on Jan 31st 2016 at 05:27 PM
Jan 31st 2016, 05:29 PM   #28
 JasonTanaka's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Bothell WA

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
And I have never said that I haven't provided pictures to some organizations at little, or no, cost,on a very limited basis. I have not given pictures to individuals.

Sent via iPhone
I smell BS.
Jan 31st 2016, 06:30 PM   #29
 WHO is DANE's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Bothell

  like an asian
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonTanaka
-This is weather dependent and I can cancel for whatever reason.
Not to thread jack - but should he cancel for whatever reason, I'd be more than happy to take someone out and help teach them whatever I can. I'll be at all 6 rounds, rain or shine and if it wasn't for guys like Jason, JR, and Darren, I wouldn't know half the things that I know about photography.

Hope to see you out at Round 1 chief!
Jan 31st 2016, 06:51 PM   #30
 Geek's Avatar
Promised a free pony!
 
  Jan 2016
  Tacoma

  Poorly
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
....... I refuse to continue to post on this subject, nor bite into the drama that is being drummed up.


Sent via iPhone

Good call, seeing as how all the drama is of your making


Sent via iPhone
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