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May 18th 2021, 07:58 PM   #46
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribbles
Last time gas was in the $4 range i bought a 15 yo civic for $2000. It now has over 300,000 miles and still gets 40 mpg. It is the most reliable car I've ever owned.
Pre-millennium Civics are f'ing monsters, going all the way back to the '70s. Simple, tight, ergonomic, punchy, flat cornering, built to last forever, could give the TARDIS lessons in how to be bigger inside than out.

Mind you, I've never owned one with an automatic, maybe those suck. But with a stick they're just great, the car that does exactly what it's supposed to, all the time.
May 18th 2021, 08:27 PM   #47
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2016 R1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribbles
Unless you count manufacturing. EVs are much more dirty to build.

And, if you charge your EV from the grid, there is some pollution involved. 60% of US electricity comes from natural gas and coal.

And in 10 years when your EV is done, is it going to be 100% recycled? Or are some of the toxic battery parts going to end up in a landfill?
You have to look at the toxicity of one battery versus a lifetime of hydrocarbons spewed by an ICE. No comparison. The ICE also ends up in a landfill and it contains a lot of pollutants also.

And, at least for me, I take part in Portland General Electricís renewable energy offering. For about $10 more a month, all of my energy purchase comes from solar and wind. Our dollars bring more renewables online. Too bad only about 10% of Portlanders subscribe. Money where our mouth is.
May 18th 2021, 09:02 PM   #48
 Scribbles's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
You have to look at the toxicity of one battery versus a lifetime of hydrocarbons spewed by an ICE. No comparison.
Thats not what you said. what you said is complete BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
An ICE creates more toxins in one tankful than an electric vehicle does in a lifetime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
And, at least for me, I take part in Portland General Electric’s renewable energy offering. For about $10 more a month, all of my energy purchase comes from solar and wind. Our dollars bring more renewables online. Too bad only about 10% of Portlanders subscribe. Money where our mouth is.
Its nice that you donate $10/mo to that, but that isnt how the grid works. Your electricity is as dirty as your neighbors.
I'm sure they'd be very happy to take $10 from everyone in Portland and promise that electrons were being diverted from the windfarms to those homes that made the donation.

I have nothing against EVs, I just hate dodging the EV cowpies.

Edited by Scribbles on May 18th 2021 at 09:08 PM
May 18th 2021, 09:17 PM   #49
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2016 R1
Talking to a wall.
May 18th 2021, 09:52 PM   #50
 Scribbles's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
And, at least for me, I take part in Portland General Electric’s renewable energy offering. For about $10 more a month, all of my energy purchase comes from solar and wind.
So, how does that work? Is there a filter on your fuse box that prevents "dirty " electrons from coming in?

At night when theres no wind, does your power go out? (you said all your power comes from solar and wind)

If you are paying more for 100% renewable energy, are your neighbors polluting more? Have you gone over and had a stern talk with them about how irresponsible they are being?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PGE website
Be part of the clean energy future. Make all your energy use renewable for about $6 more a month ($11 if you’re a small business) and help fund new renewable projects in Oregon. It only seems too good to be true.
lolz.. No, it really is too good to be true.

Edited by Scribbles on May 18th 2021 at 10:19 PM
May 18th 2021, 11:09 PM   #51
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver - HD 1250 Hammer Sportster w/Screaming Eagle stuff - GSXR-750 K12
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/18/2...-specs-details

2022 Ford F-150 Lightning launches today at 9:30PM ET. I'm guessing 500HP or so?
Seems like Biden drove one in Michigan yesterday.

I'm thinking they'll sell out the first run and there will be a long wait list, much like the Tesla Cybertruck and the Hummer EV already have.
May 19th 2021, 09:29 AM   #52
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver - HD 1250 Hammer Sportster w/Screaming Eagle stuff - GSXR-750 K12
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...h=3e7628b76d28

Aluminum Ion (graphene) batteries are right around the bend so all the whiners can stop endlessly babbling about open pit mining and rare earth minerals. Aluminum foil, aluminum chloride, ionic liquid and urea are all 100% recyclable.

Even so a modern EV currently pays back it's environmental costs in 18 months or less. When does an ICE vehicle pay back it environmental costs?...I'm gonna go with never since you burn gas the whole time you own it...

100% nuclear power + 100% electric is the best possible outcome for the typical US household.

Leave fossil fuels for dirtbikes and F-16s...save your strategic minerals for wartime....

Edited by ShootPDX on May 19th 2021 at 07:12 PM
May 19th 2021, 10:59 AM   #53
 Scribbles's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootPDX
Even so a modern EV currently pays back it's environmental costs in 18 months or less. When does an ICE vehicle pa back it environmental costs?...I'm gonna go with never since you burn gas the whole time you own it...
How does that math work?
EVs pollute more during manufacturing but less during use and more again at disposal.
At 18 mos the CO2 emissions might be the same as a ICE vehicle overall,but the EV will never pay back anything. It just pollutes less than the ICE.

I wonder if anyone has compared the total lifetime pollution of an EV, charged with electricity from natural gas and an ICE that burns natural gas (CNG).
May 19th 2021, 11:26 AM   #54
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver - HD 1250 Hammer Sportster w/Screaming Eagle stuff - GSXR-750 K12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribbles
How does that math work?
EVs pollute more during manufacturing but less during use and more again at disposal.
At 18 mos the CO2 emissions might be the same as a ICE vehicle overall,but the EV will never pay back anything. It just pollutes less than the ICE.

I wonder if anyone has compared the total lifetime pollution of an EV, charged with electricity from natural gas and an ICE that burns natural gas (CNG).
How basic do you want to make this? Cars (either EV or conventional) are more or less the same carriage-wise. So the environmental costs are roughly equal on that front. Then you add either a giant air pump and transmission, etc. OR a simple stator, windings and a battery. The cost to recover the environmental damage a battery adds is around 18 months. After the initial 18 months you are at ZERO-sum with regard to precious minerals, CO2, water, etc...consumed during the build process.

Now, if we go 100% nuclear power, which is completely carbon neutral (and which by the way...we should) then you can remain at zero sum. But...let's say it's a mix of 20% coal and some gas and 62% hydroelectric (as in Oregon...and as in 100% carbon-neutral) turns out we can still build coal and gas plants at damn near 65% total efficiency (fuel to power) and you can even recover waste heat during that process. A car is maybe 30% efficient...maybe...on it's best day...the rest of the energy is utter heat and engine (friction) propulsion waste. So, you can't really compare a powerplant which has very high theoretical efficiencies with a Kia Rio or something, which has...well...none to speak of...

I guess to summarize...even if you drive your Model S like an utter douchebag...racing between lights...scaring the shit out of the elderly, you're still 62% carbon-neutral (in Oregon) and probably >80% fuel-efficient as well....

Edited by ShootPDX on May 20th 2021 at 11:48 AM
May 19th 2021, 07:22 PM   #55
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver - HD 1250 Hammer Sportster w/Screaming Eagle stuff - GSXR-750 K12
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishi-..._Power_Station

The combined-cycle Natural Gas (or LNG) powerplant at Nishi-Nagoya which is operated by Japan's Chubu Electric is 63.08% fuel-efficient, which is, frankly, mind-blowing. I believe they own the Guinness World Record for such things...
May 20th 2021, 07:13 AM   #56
 Thumperpilot's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Rome

  SV650S, CRF450R, and others
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
I lived through the gas rationing in the Carter era. I even did a cross country motorcycle trip. It was inconvenient at times.

I may store some petrol in cans, just in case. (And to save money.)
IF you store fuel, make sure to use a metal barrel or can. Plastic cans leach out the octane over time.
May 20th 2021, 07:45 AM   #57
bcj
 bcj's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  teh rock

  K1200RS SV650
NOBODY has a plan for nuclear waste products.
Hanford has sprung more leaks.

Even simpler than lane splitting!

Yucca Mountain
May 20th 2021, 07:57 AM   #58
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumperpilot
IF you store fuel, make sure to use a metal barrel or can. Plastic cans leach out the octane over time.
Tie it tightly and then double bag it and you should be good.

Flyboymedic likes this.
May 20th 2021, 09:06 AM   #59
DGA
 DGA's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  PDX

  An Ape and a Husky
Four years ago I bought a new truck and since I tend to keep my vehicles for a while I figured it's my last new ICE powered one I think it'll be a while before I can replace it with an electric powered one, just due to nature of what I need it for, but it'll certainly come eventually.
May 20th 2021, 09:41 AM   #60
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

Hoping to see more aftermarket kits come into play. It'd be awesome to replace the stub axles of an 80s-90s Civic or Accord with motors, drop battery packs into the engine compartment and fuel tank spaces for a comparable weight distribution. You'd still need to hack something in for brake and steering assist (on models that had it), but with a professionally sorted-out kit you might be able to get something pretty awesome for $12-15K on top of a $3-4K used car.
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