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May 13th 2021, 11:59 AM   #31
 
  Feb 2016
  Spokane

  Vstrom 1000, DRZ 400 XR600 and way to many vintage mxers to list
I don't see how people can get excited about electric vehicles until the United States comes to terms about the production of batteries. And that can't happen until the United States comes to terms with mining the resources that comprise batteries.

Lithium, Cobalt, Nickel and Graphite (to name a few) are all generally mined in open pit mining operations. Does anyone think that an open pit mining operation is going to get permitted in the United States anytime soon.

Or do most people who drive EV's think that we should continue to buy all of our batteries from China.

How does it make sense we move towards a technology that the basic item of the technology is not produced in the United States.
May 13th 2021, 12:29 PM   #32
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstevens
Lithium, Cobalt, Nickel and Graphite (to name a few) are all generally mined in open pit mining operations. Does anyone think that an open pit mining operation is going to get permitted in the United States anytime soon
Hay guise I finally worked out Elon Musk's business model: SpaceX's endgame is mining the asteroid belt for Tesla products.
May 13th 2021, 12:31 PM   #33
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2016 R1
Batteries are an issue. A small issue. One battery for the life of a car.

Yes, it is toxic and is mined with many issues and it is still consumption on a massive scale. And with 8 billion+ people, it is still not sustainable worldwide to drive cars of any type.

But, compared to the waste and toxicity of an ICE, it is laughable to put them in the same universe.

An ICE creates more toxins in one tankful than an electric vehicle does in a lifetime.

And maintenance is nearly nonexistent with electric. No oil changes. No tune ups. No subsystems. Brakes and tires are about it. And the brakes recharge the battery.
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May 13th 2021, 12:39 PM   #34
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

A search that produces interesting results: recovering rare metals from mine tailings

EDIT: Aside: investing in EV manufacturing and infrastructure is worthwhile almost irrespective of the chemistry used in the batteries, for the simple reason that battery chemistry is a wide open field with almost infinite potential. There are a LOT of ways to store electricity; we're still just scratching the surface.
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Edited by WarpShatner7 on May 13th 2021 at 12:48 PM
May 14th 2021, 08:01 AM   #35
DGA
 DGA's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  PDX

  An Ape and a Husky
Electric cars are nothing new, they've been around since the 1800's. Electric motors/generators even longer. It's hard to perceive how much money has been invested in ICE vehicles and infrastructure over the last century to get them to where they are now. A bit tongue-in-cheek, but if they put this kind of money and time into nuclear power vehicles, we'd be driving those right now. Writing has bee on the wall for a while, it's just a matter of time before electric propulsion overtakes gas.

It can also be hard to go from something you've known and liked all your life, to something new. Where my mid-set changed is when I drove a P100, Model S one morning and that evening got to drive a highly modified ZR1 Corvette. Corvette's acceleration could not touch that Model S...I was sold.
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May 14th 2021, 08:57 AM   #36
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2016 R1
Electric has changed the performance game. It used to be that I knew that short of a Countach or Veyron, my liter bike would beat anything on four wheels up to 150 mph easily. But now a used Tesla can out run the fastest sportbikes.

And now that China has demonstrated the huge advantage of having battery changing stations that take a minute to switch, I think the Biden administration needs to rethink putting 500,000 fast charging stations in that will be obsolete before they are usable.
May 14th 2021, 11:15 AM   #37
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2019 Nada
Last time gas got up in the $4.00 range i bought a 2012 Leaf. I drove it for 5 years then sold it. It was a Gen 1 Leaf so it only ever had about 80 miles of real-world range (in the summer. less in winter.) I paid $40,000.00 for it (before $7,000.00 government refund) and I sold it for $5,000.00 because it only had about a 25 mile useful range.
No frigging way would I ever buy a battery car again. It was a HUGE pain in the ass. I installed a 220 outlet in the garage, which was nice. It's an easy install for any electrician. and I never once charged away from home. no way. too hard to do and impossible to really plan for. Battery cars are a scam. lithium is toxic as hell. and the whole gas "shortage" thing is a fucking LIE. It is always a LIE, every time they pull it out of the drawer and try to pass it off on us.
May 14th 2021, 12:15 PM   #38
DGA
 DGA's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  PDX

  An Ape and a Husky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
Last time gas got up in the $4.00 range i bought a 2012 Leaf. I drove it for 5 years then sold it. It was a Gen 1 Leaf so it only ever had about 80 miles of real-world range (in the summer. less in winter.) I paid $40,000.00 for it (before $7,000.00 government refund) and I sold it for $5,000.00 because it only had about a 25 mile useful range.
No frigging way would I ever buy a battery car again. It was a HUGE pain in the ass. I installed a 220 outlet in the garage, which was nice. It's an easy install for any electrician. and I never once charged away from home. no way. too hard to do and impossible to really plan for. Battery cars are a scam. lithium is toxic as hell. and the whole gas "shortage" thing is a fucking LIE. It is always a LIE, every time they pull it out of the drawer and try to pass it off on us.
Being a beta tester ain't easy.
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May 14th 2021, 01:23 PM   #39
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2016 R1
Not sure Id buy new electric. My Fiat was $36K new. I got it for less than a third three years old with 5,000 miles on it. With rebates and tax write offs two thirds less than that was my outlay. Anybody say free car?

Time to go electric?-fc8d305c-2d98-40fc-aea9-88f3aeec42eb.jpg
May 14th 2021, 03:43 PM   #40
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
Where my mid-set changed is when I drove a P100, Model S one morning and that evening got to drive a highly modified ZR1 Corvette. Corvette's acceleration could not touch that Model S...I was sold.
Guy in a Tesla decided to nail it on a safe stretch of straightaway with no intersections, just to show me who was boss. I twisted the throttle in response and he didn't get away from me, but it was a close thing. On any decently powerful modern motorcycle you get used to being able to leave all the cars behind at will, so it's kind of an adjustment to realize there's this growing class of cars that can keep up if they want to and you can't take it for granted anymore.
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May 14th 2021, 04:01 PM   #41
 Dash Riprock's Avatar
 
  Apr 2018
  Good Grief

  Yamaha 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
Last time gas got up in the $4.00 range i bought a 2012 Leaf. I drove it for 5 years then sold it. It was a Gen 1 Leaf so it only ever had about 80 miles of real-world range (in the summer. less in winter.) I paid $40,000.00 for it (before $7,000.00 government refund) and I sold it for $5,000.00 because it only had about a 25 mile useful range.
No frigging way would I ever buy a battery car again. It was a HUGE pain in the ass. I installed a 220 outlet in the garage, which was nice. It's an easy install for any electrician. and I never once charged away from home. no way. too hard to do and impossible to really plan for. Battery cars are a scam. lithium is toxic as hell. and the whole gas "shortage" thing is a fucking LIE. It is always a LIE, every time they pull it out of the drawer and try to pass it off on us.
Stop making sense.
May 16th 2021, 01:52 PM   #42
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver - HD 1250 Hammer Sportster w/Screaming Eagle stuff - GSXR-750 K12
2011 Leaf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
Last time gas got up in the $4.00 range i bought a 2012 Leaf. I drove it for 5 years then sold it. It was a Gen 1 Leaf so it only ever had about 80 miles of real-world range (in the summer. less in winter.) I paid $40,000.00 for it (before $7,000.00 government refund) and I sold it for $5,000.00 because it only had about a 25 mile useful range.
No frigging way would I ever buy a battery car again. It was a HUGE pain in the ass. I installed a 220 outlet in the garage, which was nice. It's an easy install for any electrician. and I never once charged away from home. no way. too hard to do and impossible to really plan for. Battery cars are a scam. lithium is toxic as hell. and the whole gas "shortage" thing is a fucking LIE. It is always a LIE, every time they pull it out of the drawer and try to pass it off on us.
The most I've even seen on the dash of the 2011 Leaf is 44 miles...the most on the Bolt 266...I suspect the Leaf's real-world range is 28 miles or so...the Bolt probably 275 or so...Amazingly, the Leaf had 65K on the odometer so that's 6500 miles a year...Bolt is logging 19K+ miles per year...so of the two cars only the Bolt can be driven like a conventional car...
May 17th 2021, 06:34 AM   #43
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

Last bought a new car in 2012, and at that time I had at least a few puzzled friends say "I would have thought you'd have got an electric". I said I would have if there were one worth having yet.

That's changed somewhat now, but we've since come to drive so little between telecommuting, bicycles, motorcycles, the MAX, being a few blocks from at least three bus routes and just plain walking more that buying a new car of any kind just doesn't seem like a good spend anymore; for that small subset of trips that really call for one, well, our mossy Hondas run just fine on their stale gas.
May 18th 2021, 07:19 PM   #44
 Scribbles's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
An ICE creates more toxins in one tankful than an electric vehicle does in a lifetime.
Unless you count manufacturing. EVs are much more dirty to build.

And, if you charge your EV from the grid, there is some pollution involved. 60% of US electricity comes from natural gas and coal.

And in 10 years when your EV is done, is it going to be 100% recycled? Or are some of the toxic battery parts going to end up in a landfill?
May 18th 2021, 07:22 PM   #45
 Scribbles's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
Last time gas got up in the $4.00 range i bought a 2012 Leaf.
Last time gas was in the $4 range i bought a 15 yo civic for $2000. It now has over 300,000 miles and still gets 40 mpg. It is the most reliable car I've ever owned.
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