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Jul 27th 2019, 02:54 PM   #1
 Flyboymedic's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Hazel Dell, Wa

  Honda VFR800, Husqvarna TE 610, Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, Suzuki VStrom 650, Yamaha Radian, MZ 125SM
Question Snell M2015 vs M2020 difference?

While I can get by without a new helmet, I found an Arai pattern that I like and tempted to buy it, however with the new Snell M2020 standard not too far away, I kind of want to wait and get the latest and greatest. I've found a couple articles that explain the difference, but not really in a way that I understand it. Can someone dumb down the difference for me in the Snell M2015 vs M2020 standard.
Jul 27th 2019, 03:54 PM   #2
 Pavement Tested's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seabeck

  '08 GSX1300R, '06 GSX-R 750, '17 KTM 690 Duke
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the 2020 crashes better.
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Jul 27th 2019, 05:29 PM   #3
 Flyboymedic's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Hazel Dell, Wa

  Honda VFR800, Husqvarna TE 610, Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, Suzuki VStrom 650, Yamaha Radian, MZ 125SM
https://silodrome.com/snell-vs-dot-v...rds-throwdown/

The older M2005 standard favoured a more shock-resistant helmet, allowing impact shock up to 290-300 g’s, but their M2010 standard led the charge for a more shock-absorbent helmet. Both standards under M2015 and the newest M2020 (set to replace M2015 in October 2019) allow peak acceleration of 275 g’s for the smaller headforms to 243-257g’s for the largest (dependent on testing under an M2020R or M2020D designation).

So the new standard will be more shock absorbing, especially for a smaller head size like myself???
Jul 27th 2019, 08:05 PM   #4
 Burphel's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Travelling around the NW

  Triumph Bonnezilla
Sounds like a very delayed reaction to the science showing it's all about lower G-forces when it comes to reducing severity of closed head injuries and even concussions. My worst concussions were in Snell helmets. I'm strictly ECE now.
Jul 27th 2019, 09:09 PM   #5
 Flyboymedic's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Hazel Dell, Wa

  Honda VFR800, Husqvarna TE 610, Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, Suzuki VStrom 650, Yamaha Radian, MZ 125SM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burphel
My worst concussions were in Snell helmets. I'm strictly ECE now.
So a couple different, and completely opposite conclusions could be inferred from that statement and I'm wondering, do you believe your injury was because the helmet was too hard, or not hard enough? And as a secondary question, if the helmet was too hard and didn't give enough under the speed, would a softer helmet given too much and therefore not be safe enough??? Or was it too soft at speed, and you needed a harder helmet that would give at a higher speed, rather than a slower speed??? Regardless, it kinda looks like Snell is migrating to the ECE standard according to the above article.
Embarrassingly, their G force numbers are rather confusing for me and I don't understand how they work.

For me, a small Arai Signet-Q, now -X is the only helmet that really fits me incredibly well. Of course, it's Snell so I'm stuck with that. I've tried multiple other helmets (except for Icon Armada which was recently banned at a track), and nothing else fits as well and is as comfortable so I'm pretty much stuck with them unless I travel to CA to Shoei NA and get it custom fitted by an employee instead of Joe salesman at CG that doesn't know anymore than I do.
Jul 27th 2019, 09:50 PM   #6
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Motorcyclist told the world Snell was an overbuilt standard that imparted more G force to the brain than DOT or ECE standards.

I wonder how many injuries and deaths had to occur while Snell incrementally reduced their standard to match DOT and ECE over the years? I abandoned Snell long ago and will never go back to a company that put profit and reputation over lives.

Sort of like now with all the entrenched industries, like marine cargo, saying they will go zero emission in just another decade (or two), when it is understood by all that by then it is planetary game over.
Jul 27th 2019, 10:12 PM   #7
 Flyboymedic's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Hazel Dell, Wa

  Honda VFR800, Husqvarna TE 610, Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, Suzuki VStrom 650, Yamaha Radian, MZ 125SM
My research is starting to migrate into DOT vs SNELL vs ECE and these well respected people offer almost completely opposite viewpoints which I find interesting.



Oh, and if you click on the first video below you can get some files on each organization's guidelines for testing, but more importantly, Phil has assembled an easy to read document describing the differences into how each rating is achieved:


Edited by Flyboymedic on Jul 27th 2019 at 10:15 PM
Jul 28th 2019, 03:56 AM   #8
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

Interesting vids but I would suggest ANY helmet is better than NO helmet, or the one you WILL wear is better than nothing at all. Yes, a better helmet is going to be, well, better, but if say, expense is a factor, the one you can afford is better than bagging it all together. Saying you have the option to not wear one at all.
Jul 28th 2019, 07:10 AM   #9
 Flyboymedic's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Hazel Dell, Wa

  Honda VFR800, Husqvarna TE 610, Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, Suzuki VStrom 650, Yamaha Radian, MZ 125SM
I think that goes without saying for all of us here and is a moot point, especially since it's mandatory in the 3 western states. The ones that don't want to wear a helmet are generally on HD forums.
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Jul 28th 2019, 01:29 PM   #10
 Burphel's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Travelling around the NW

  Triumph Bonnezilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboymedic
So a couple different, and completely opposite conclusions could be inferred from that statement and I'm wondering, do you believe your injury was because the helmet was too hard, or not hard enough? And as a secondary question, if the helmet was too hard and didn't give enough under the speed, would a softer helmet given too much and therefore not be safe enough??? Or was it too soft at speed, and you needed a harder helmet that would give at a higher speed, rather than a slower speed??? Regardless, it kinda looks like Snell is migrating to the ECE standard according to the above article.
Embarrassingly, their G force numbers are rather confusing for me and I don't understand how they work.
I'm in the camp that believes Snell has encouraged engineering helmets toward catastrophic impacts with no real science to back that standard. While ignoring studies showing that lower energy impacts are more common, and that building helmets for the catastrophic impact results in more energy delivered to the brain with those lower energy impacts. I'm also intellectually insulted with my remaining brain cells at Snell's scientific laziness. (short version, Snell helmet too stiff, no good reason, stupid)

I've had two race crashes in Snell Shoeis, an RF 1200 at low speed/low altitude and an X 14 where I got high sided (although the scuff on the helmet was only about 1" square). Lost consciousness with both and follow-on concussion symptoms. One in a Scheuberth S2 (ECE). Head hit hard enough to be a "bell ringer," but I was able to clear myself from the track. The Scheuberth was actually my first track crash. Unfortunately, the cost of replacement lead me to try the Shoeis because they fit well and were a good helmet for the money. Honestly, at this point, I'd take an ECE-rated alphabet brand helmet over a Shoei. I do wish Shoei and Arai would stop making Snell helmets. Any road racing org will take ECE. I don't know about drag/MX/flat track, but I'm willing to bet they'd fall in line if one of the big guys came out and said they weren't going to do it anymore.

My current lid is a Schuberth C3 Lite, which is DOT-only because Schuberth decided to stop doing dual-rated DOT/ECE. I'm willing to trust that they're not making a shit helmet, though. I'm taking the year off racing, kind of looking around at what's available in ECE for race-ish helmets.

Jul 28th 2019, 01:32 PM   #11
 Flyboymedic's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Hazel Dell, Wa

  Honda VFR800, Husqvarna TE 610, Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, Suzuki VStrom 650, Yamaha Radian, MZ 125SM
@Burphel Thanks for the explanation.
I almost forgot about the fact that having one concussion increases the likelihood of having another so I wonder if experiencing your first one in the Scheuberth contributed to your more extreme symptoms in the Snell helmet???

https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exerci...risk-of-more#1
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Edited by Flyboymedic on Jul 28th 2019 at 02:32 PM
Jul 29th 2019, 12:15 PM   #12
 Burphel's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Travelling around the NW

  Triumph Bonnezilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboymedic
@Burphel Thanks for the explanation.
I almost forgot about the fact that having one concussion increases the likelihood of having another so I wonder if experiencing your first one in the Scheuberth contributed to your more extreme symptoms in the Snell helmet???

https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exerci...risk-of-more#1
Always possible. Concussions do seem to build upon eachother. Subjectively, I'd say the first one was extremely minor. Of course, the following ones were rather more severe. I'm not quite Mohammed Ali or a NFL linebacker, but I'm quite aware that my risk is increased vs someone who's led a more sheltered lifestyle.
Jul 29th 2019, 12:26 PM   #13
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
The Snell standard always makes me think of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry asks why sky divers wear helmets, because at that speed, the person becomes the crash protection for the helmet rather than the other way around.

The Snell helmet is intact. The head inside is a different matter, literally. (Solid to liquid.)
Aug 2nd 2019, 07:20 PM   #14
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  R1200ST, CB350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
The Snell standard always makes me think of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry asks why sky divers wear helmets, because at that speed, the person becomes the crash protection for the helmet rather than the other way around.
FYI (just in case the show didn't offer an answer -- I'm guessing it didn't), it's not to protect you if the chute doesn't open, obviously you'd need to be encased in a bouncy castle full of marshmallows for that. It's to protect you against mishaps that can occur at several points; mostly the landing, or whatever substitutes for one in the worst case. It still happens mighty fast, there are a lot of things that can go wrong, and a lot of things that could end up rising up to welcome you other than a lawn.
Aug 2nd 2019, 07:28 PM   #15
 Flyboymedic's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Hazel Dell, Wa

  Honda VFR800, Husqvarna TE 610, Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, Suzuki VStrom 650, Yamaha Radian, MZ 125SM
That reminds me, I'm turning the big 5-0 this year and to make up for a shitty, shitty 40th in Iraq, I'm going to jump out of a perfectly good airplane!
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