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Jul 30th 2018, 04:09 PM   #31
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '08 BMW K12GT, '06 Honda CBR1000RR (Track), '14 KTM Duke 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Bailouts don't create consumers. Harley may have been able to stay afloat initially because of that, but that was when they started marketing the "lifestyle" aspect and that is what created the consumer desire. I don't quite understand why people dislike it when a marketing campaign works. The whole point of marketing is to draw in people to buy your product. And in this way Harley excelled. Just because you don't like the "lifestyle" aspect doesn't make it wrong, and it certainly doesn't make the MoCo something "evil". Just because you don't like the bikes they make, that doesn't make them wrong. Nor does it somehow decrease the value of those people who do like the "lifestyle" aspect and the bikes.

The whole "well they started the fight" attitude comes across as a spoiled child who has to find justification for continuing the fight.

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I know I speak for many riders when I say this:

Why I don't like HD:

The bikes: Unimaginative, uninspiring, the low rung of the ladder on any performance measure you care to take, that low setting makes their bikes less safe than they could be. They appear to be on the right track with at least 2 of their 4 new models, but all we've seen are mock-ups. Can they hang with the bikes to which their new models will be compared?

The marketing: Enough with the tough-guy stances, the 'live-free/ride/hard/freedom cliches'. Has HD done ANY market research lately? Their trite and cliche'd market presence is as annoying as it is insulting to the young now-and-future-riders they need to reach. If they try to market their new models as they've done their old . . . they WILL fail.

That ad vid someone posted. "HD introduces a new sportbike." Yet in a 2-minute-plus video, I saw no sport bike. I heard nothing about what sport bikes (HD or not) can do. I saw a naked bike on a track and I heard a bunch of the same tired HD cliche's. I saw nothing that excites me as an avid rider. If I were a new rider, I certainly need to be tickled differently than that vid. Somebody, anybody, just please make it stop.

Here's the voice-over ad-copy that HD needs with their next bike, (and present to us a bike that can do it).

"HD, moving into the future with the best motorcycles you can buy. Better handling, better brakes, a better ride. We've listened to what current and future riders want and need from a motorcycle and these x-number of models execute those needs better than anything from Europe or Japan."

This would pique my interest, get me to pay attention, get me to go test ride, hopefully nodding inside my helmet during that test ride, saying to myself "fuck yea! HD finally did it."

Over the top? Not if they can do it. If they can't? If they again slowly mutate the same ol architecture, sell it with the same ol song and dance: Ho-hum.

Because HD created the image that they are bikes for fat old men, that they're heavy and expensive, that you'll need to start liking skulls and maltese crosses . . . true or not . . . HD must come to the table BETTER than their competition. And I mean truly better. Not just a new angle on the same old story, like the vid I referenced earlier.

I'm having deja-vu from a 10-year-old thread about HD, from another forum, but the exact same plea for HD.

Lots of successful examples from the auto and moto industry on how to re-brand, invigorate the line, shed an old and stale image. It's not impossible. First thing HD must do is fire anyone who's ever written their past ad copy. that's a start. And for gawd's sake, a two minute teaser ad that makes me think HD doesn't even know what is a sportbike? And say NOTHING about it? No engine or chassis specs, no performance info, nada, zip, zilch. I'm kind of embarrassed for HD as I watch it.

That's HD task: To over come my conclusions, to overcome the fact that I've written them off as kinda clueless antique peddlers.
HalcyonSon likes this.

Edited by FireDave on Jul 30th 2018 at 04:12 PM
Jul 30th 2018, 04:57 PM   #32
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
I know I speak for many riders when I say this:
While conveniently forgetting that non-Harley buyers are still in the minority in this country. Harley, even though its sales have dropped, still outsells every other single manufacturer, and only recently has dropped below 50% of overall street bike sales.

Everything that Harley bashers complain about are the things that the majority of American riders wanted.

The reality is that Harley will never win over people like you because what you really want, in order to buy a Harley, is for Harley to not be Harley. You say "Harley needs to do something different". And when they do: "Well that's not good enough." Harley makes V-twin powered motorcycles, that's what they do, it's what they always have done. Expecting them to do something radically different would be like expecting Ducati to build an in-line 4-cylinder, 600cc, supersport. It's just not who they are, and if they did, chances are that no one would buy it. Why? Because its not really a Ducati.

So it really comes back to, instead of expecting Harley to make some radical shift in who they are, us making a radical shift in how we relate to everyone else who rides, no matter what they ride. Just because you dislike something doesn't make it bad. Harley's marketing strategy is not, somehow, a personal attack on your value. Chill out and embrace ALL genres and makes of motorcycle. And geez, let others do the same without all your crap being flung.
albatrosscafe likes this.
Jul 30th 2018, 05:30 PM   #33
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
okay I'm hoping this bike will ride and run as good as it looks..it could be a real game changer for Harley...

http://overdrive.in/news-cars-auto/i...5-sport-naked/

the other new bikes shows that they just might have a door to the future too..

https://rideapart.com/articles/harle...-streetfighter

some of these are definitely Harley not being Harley in the traditional sense...seems they can see a future their hard core base couldn't...that streetfighter is water cooled!!! no fins!! gawd I hope it's sweet...
Greg likes this.

Edited by chadams66 on Jul 30th 2018 at 05:39 PM
Jul 30th 2018, 05:48 PM   #34
 Mudslinger's Avatar
 
  Sep 2016
  Seabeck

  Africa Twin
I'll probably get some flak for this but....I think the electric bike is the way to go for the future. It would be nice if the electric bike had a hot swappable battery. Then they could partner with 7/11. You could drive in pay your $2 and swap out your battery. Not much different from stopping for gas and you get rid of the range anxiety. The other bikes that they announced have already been done, and better, by BMW, Yamaha and Honda.
Flame away.
Jul 30th 2018, 06:17 PM   #35
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslinger
The other bikes that they announced have already been done, and better, by BMW, Yamaha and Honda.
Flame away.
Other than the "Custom" (which is a style that Harley originated) that's a completely DUH statement.

Again "Harley needs to do something different"..."well gee others have already made those, and better." Other than building a flying, jet-powered bike, there really isn't anything "new" that they could do. Pretty much every genre of motorcycle has been built by someone, at some point.



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Jul 30th 2018, 06:59 PM   #36
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Here

They made the XR1200x. And then then they stopped making it. They made the Ulysses. And then stopped. They had a really interesting and relatively modern engine in the VSRC, and they used it exclusively in what amounts to one very niche bike, and then stopped using it at all.

So now they're going make some or all of these bikes. And maybe when they don't sell very many of them for any of several possible reasons, they'll stop. I dunno. You can probably tell I'm not a Harley expert, eh?
HalcyonSon likes this.
Jul 30th 2018, 06:59 PM   #37
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '08 BMW K12GT, '06 Honda CBR1000RR (Track), '14 KTM Duke 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
While conveniently forgetting that non-Harley buyers are still in the minority in this country. Harley, even though its sales have dropped, still outsells every other single manufacturer, and only recently has dropped below 50% of overall street bike sales.

Everything that Harley bashers complain about are the things that the majority of American riders wanted.

The reality is that Harley will never win over people like you because what you really want, in order to buy a Harley, is for Harley to not be Harley. You say "Harley needs to do something different". And when they do: "Well that's not good enough." Harley makes V-twin powered motorcycles, that's what they do, it's what they always have done. Expecting them to do something radically different would be like expecting Ducati to build an in-line 4-cylinder, 600cc, supersport. It's just not who they are, and if they did, chances are that no one would buy it. Why? Because its not really a Ducati.

So it really comes back to, instead of expecting Harley to make some radical shift in who they are, us making a radical shift in how we relate to everyone else who rides, no matter what they ride. Just because you dislike something doesn't make it bad. Harley's marketing strategy is not, somehow, a personal attack on your value. Chill out and embrace ALL genres and makes of motorcycle. And geez, let others do the same without all your crap being flung.
Exactly. I want a bike that offers what I want a bike to offer. I'm not bashing HD. I'm telling them, and you, what they need to do to get me, a motorcyclist, a motorcycle buyer, an owner of 30 bikes in my lifetime (one HD) to buy their brand. And since their brand is currently shrinking faster than ever, shrinking faster than the industry, I think I may have a point.

HD has already made the shift you appear to believe they shouldn't. They know they must adapt and I give them props for trying. Can they execute?
Will the Pan America be another Ulysses? V-Rod, Buell, AMF, Evolution, etc, etc. Will their sportbike only be such to those who who define one as 'quicker than a Sportster?'

Ducati, selling a 4 cyl bike. BMW selling giant roadsters and 300 cc bikes. Hell froze over. The ball is squarely in HD's court.

And speaking objectively about bikes, the pros and cons the brand at hand, and you call it flinging crap, etc. Why so defensive? When the thread comes to another brand, I'll be just as objective, and just as frank.

Edited by FireDave on Jul 30th 2018 at 07:06 PM
Jul 31st 2018, 12:37 AM   #38
 Thumperpilot's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Rome

  SV650S, CRF450R, and others
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Other than the "Custom" (which is a style that Harley originated) that's a completely DUH statement.

Again "Harley needs to do something different"..."well gee others have already made those, and better." Other than building a flying, jet-powered bike, there really isn't anything "new" that they could do. Pretty much every genre of motorcycle has been built by someone, at some point.

Sent via SM-G950U
With Euro 4 emissions and the end of the usable HP range reached with the performance European brands, Harley is already using a power plant that won't match up in performance. If they were serious they'd bring out a sportbike with a V4 if they want to keep to the V engine (and "v" configurations have great torque, sound, etc.). They would show that they are positioning themselves for years to come. Yes, the battery bike is a forward-thinking future bike, but electric still seems to have enough hurdles that it is relatively a fringe market a handfull of years away from becoming mainstream.

What if BMW decided that they were the "original" boxer company and only built boxer powered bikes? How ludicrous that would be from a business perspective?!! The goal is to sell motorcycles. Buell and his various models to come out the back door of Harley Davidson was the last bright spot to come from Harley, and they killed it as ignominiously as possible. How dare Eric to use anything but our antiquated "technology" for powering a sport bike!

Simply put, that kind of thinking will be the death of Harley.
Greg likes this.

Edited by Thumperpilot on Jul 31st 2018 at 01:46 PM
Jul 31st 2018, 12:56 AM   #39
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver - HD 1250 Hammer Sportster w/Screaming Eagle stuff - GSXR-750 K12
In March 2017...I eerily predicted at least some of these HD moves...Project LiveWire going live...a foray into the Adventure Bike segment, and I was written off as a crazy person. Here then is that post: Weirdly large number of Harleys for sale

Quote:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________________


Originally Posted by ShootPDX
Here's what I would do if they somehow made me CEO of Harley tomorrow...it's unlikely....but my name is also Matt....so maybe I could sneak in there just long enough to create some chaos.

Firstly I would announce the project livewire is going into full production--NOW. and I would structure it so that Harley's entry into the electric vehicle platform market would be a Ducati-style lease...meaning that I would put you on THE state of the art electric motorcycle for under $300 a month... and to go one better than Duc...halfway through your lease... I would send you a little card in the mail offering to buyback your motorcycle at its absolute residual price...and then I would do exactly the same thing at lease terminus...in fairly short order every single electric motorcycle on the road would have a Harley Davidson badge on the side. I would slaughter Polaris-Brammo ...literally stop them right in their tracks...

Secondly I would rehire Erik Buell as a consultant on the powerplant side of the house and resurrect a partnership with Rotax to build the finest V4 production motorcycle both technically and performance-wise...in the entire world. I would try and find a good Italian designer or maybe even lure Tadao out of retirement...and we put that sucker on display right in the middle of every Harley dealership THE most technically advanced and superior motorcycle in the world...period.

Thirdly...we would build an adventure-bike based on the Buell Thunderstorm platform...except instead of a belt or a chain we would run a 100,000 mile warranted shaft drive...and...we would have an absolute weight limit of 500 pounds so that you can pick the damn thing up when it falls down...and a price-point guaranteed to be 20% less than Ducati...within about three years I should have about 25% of that market... or more ...


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________________


And the company would die.

The reality is that Harley does something few other manufacturers do, they rely heavily on consultation with their dealers and their consumers (Through the Harley Owners Group) when developing new bikes. The Livewire project is a perfect example. That bike toured the nation with dealers on Harley owners getting to ride it and then voice their opinions. What came back was that it was a bike that would not sell well in Harley dealerships. The same can be said for Buell, and to some extent, the Vrod. Those were great bikes, but they weren't what the consumers thought of when they thought of Harley. Harley owners, and potential Harley owners know what they want, and it has nothing to do with lean angles, lap times, or 0-60 numbers.

Whether people on this forum get it, or not, the majority of on-road motorcycle riders in this country prefer to own what Harley is selling.
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__________________
Kevin

http://veritasimagerynw.smugmug.com
https://www.facebook.com/VeritasImag...thwest/?ref=hl

Edited by ShootPDX on Jul 31st 2018 at 01:17 AM
Jul 31st 2018, 02:16 AM   #40
 Mudslinger's Avatar
 
  Sep 2016
  Seabeck

  Africa Twin
VeritasImageryNW:" Other than building a flying, jet-powered bike, there really isn't anything "new" that they could do.



Let's hope that the engineers at Harley don't share your mindset because that is a perfect example of the antiquated thinking that will ensure their failure.
Thumperpilot likes this.
Jul 31st 2018, 03:52 AM   #41
 MMcN49's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Small Island Surrounded by Puget Sound

  07 Buell XB12STT, (Two) 12 Suzuki DR650 SE 72BMWR75/5 KIA @ 243K
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslinger
Design & build a flying, jet-powered bike!
There you go, your new, (and first) retirement job. Pencil me in to purchase one, (as soon as I get a pilot's license).
Jul 31st 2018, 05:59 AM   #42
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslinger
VeritasImageryNW:" Other than building a flying, jet-powered bike, there really isn't anything "new" that they could do.



Let's hope that the engineers at Harley don't share your mindset because that is a perfect example of the antiquated thinking that will ensure their failure.
So why don't you tell me what "new" bike they should build.

Scooter? Been done. Minibike? Been done, and doing again. Sportbike? Been done. Naked? Been done. Standard? Done. Tourer, ADV, cruiser, supermoto, dual purpose, dirt, cafe, scrambler, sidecar, trike? Already been done.

V4? Done. Inline 4? Done. Triple? Done. Heck even V5s and V8s have been done.

The reality is there isn't anything truly "new" left that someone hasn't already done.

My point wasn't that they shouldn't try something new to them. My point was that even though they are, you hit them with a "well others have done that better." Your comment was the one that is the problem, not mine. You were the one painting them into a corner, by basically saying "Harley needs to do something different, as long as it's not something anyone else has already done."

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Jul 31st 2018, 06:43 AM   #43
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '08 BMW K12GT, '06 Honda CBR1000RR (Track), '14 KTM Duke 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootPDX
__________________________________________________ _______________

The reality is that Harley does something few other manufacturers do, they rely heavily on consultation with their dealers and their consumers (Through the Harley Owners Group) when developing new bikes. The Livewire project is a perfect example. That bike toured the nation with dealers on Harley owners getting to ride it and then voice their opinions. What came back was that it was a bike that would not sell well in Harley dealerships. The same can be said for Buell, and to some extent, the Vrod. Those were great bikes, but they weren't what the consumers thought of when they thought of Harley. Harley owners, and potential Harley owners know what they want, and it has nothing to do with lean angles, lap times, or 0-60 numbers.

Whether people on this forum get it, or not, the majority of on-road motorcycle riders in this country prefer to own what Harley is selling.
Like
__________________
Kevin
Yes, this is HD's issue. I wasn't in their dealership, so they didn't ask me what I wanted. Who goes to HD dealers? HD owners, people who like HD, or at least think they want one, bought their marketing. People who like half-helmets and skull-emblazoned do-rags. Exactly my point.

I disagree with your last line. The tester influences the test. HD told their test subjects, their customers what to want, what to buy. Does HD really think those who fall under their spell are objective about the greater motorcycle community or market? That's flawed.

HD wasn't listening for years. I can't be more clear, then and now: I WANT TO BUY AMERICAN.

It now appears they're trying, at least 15 years too late if you ask me. I've been saying it 30 years, a great number of moto-byers have been saying it for decades: HD, please build a bike I want to buy, here's how, here are the basic parameters.

They've never even tried until now. Why not? They could've still made their FLSC-ABCDEFG's AND built a more modern standard, sport-tourer or adv, couldn't they?

Yes, they had a monstrous cash cow for years. It blinded them. Making money and being smart aren't always the same thing.

Just imagine their market share if, 20 years ago, just at the advent of their extreme level of black-t-shirt-life-style branding, they had built THE American Sport-Tourer, THE American Standard, THE American Sportbike and Adv bike and 400cc Starter bike.
Jul 31st 2018, 07:33 AM   #44
DGA
 DGA's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  PDX

  An Ape and a Husky
HD knows what they are doing and you can see that through them trying to adjust to the market with these new bikes. Their core buyer group, baby boomers with disposable income are slowly vanishing. If they don't do anything, they will die out with that generation, or be reduced to a very much smaller company than they are now.
Jul 31st 2018, 08:18 AM   #45
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
WTF? New pix on the webz. WTF? I mean - they re-made the Sportster 48 with a diff motor but everything else the same? Low bars, forward foot controls, tiny tank, fat tires...how is that new? How is that not every Sportster ever made?





And that Gandwanaland ADV...WTF?



Why does every garage hacker get it more right than Harley?



Sheesh.

Look, the future is smaller, lighter, cheaper. it has an electric component (but the whole "wtf do we do about battery charging?' thing is still THE problem. Also a problem is the whole thing with batteries that "fade" - they lose charge-holding capacity over time.)

Many people park their bikes outside - apartment building parking lots, parking garages, on the street - how do these folks charge their bikes?

This is a prime reason the Leaf isn't working out - people without their own garages have trouble with charging. Do they string extension cords over the sidewalk, hang them from trees?

I think there is a market for a sort of hybrid motorcycle/mountain bike. A sturdier mountain bike thingy that can go maybe 50 mph, no freeway but any road, and that you can bring indoors to store and charge, like in your office or apartment.



I think Harley is massively FUCKED because of their whole "lifestyle" thing and how well it worked. Harley is exactly like Bob Denver. He can NEVER, in any universe, be anything else other than Gilligan. Ever. Harley will always and forever be the skull tee-shirt and nazi helmet poser brand. #orangecountychoppers #sonsofanarchy #richdentist



chadams66 and Mudslinger like this.

Edited by Sentinel on Jul 31st 2018 at 08:32 AM
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