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Feb 16th 2020, 11:49 AM   #61
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

Gotta say while I'm firmly on the anti-fossil side of this argument, I'm open to persuasion about nuclear. Love to see an independent, non-conflicted, fully-costed program using proven technology, that showed that the end-to-end fuel life cycle risks were mitigated without wishful thinking or ignoring several herds of large angry elephants in the room and presented without verbal abuse, preferably by someone who doesn't also believe that Atlas Shrugged is the third volume of the bible.

Edited by WarpShatner7 on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:52 AM
Feb 16th 2020, 12:16 PM   #62
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripler
There's lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Per capita, if you call "All others" the third world nations and the rest 1st world (even though I might consider India third world), then:

1st world: 6.1 billion tonnes CO2/billion people
3rd world: 3.6 "" ""

"We" pollute nearly twice as much.
The point is the trends, not the absolute numbers. Our numbers are going down a bit, while others' numbers are shooting up sharply.
Feb 16th 2020, 12:24 PM   #63
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
Nuclear is just a red herring the radical right uses to attempt to show environmentalists are not serious about global warming. “Well, if you were serious, you would accept this available, ‘clean’ fuel source.”

If nuclear were so viable, the nuclear industry could fund themselves. No insurer will cover them and it requires tax payers to cover the risk. That should tell you something. When private capitalism requires public socialism to exist, something is going on.
It's because the radical greens early on rejected the nuclear, because it enables population growth through the abundance of cheap clean electricity - oh the horror - and then invested all their energy into making it as costly as possible through incessant lawsuits, protests, legislation that puts idiotic burdens on nuclear stations, and other sabotaging tactics.

If Congress passed a law banning lawsuits against nuclear power plants, the rest of economic equilibrium would snap into place and we would have 1000s of them popping up.

But that would be a viable capitalist solution to the problem of global warming, and greens cannot allow that!

No greenie has even answered a simple, straightforward question: "what is your alternative to the need of baseload energy".

Go ahead, ask them all you want. They'll evade, they'll deflect, they'll deride, but they'll give no answer.

Edited by liberpolly on Feb 16th 2020 at 01:14 PM
Feb 16th 2020, 12:35 PM   #64
 stripler's Avatar
 
  Jun 2018
  PORTLAND

  2019 KTM Duke 790 / 2002 Honda XR400R
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
The point is the trends, not the absolute numbers. Our numbers are going down a bit, while others' numbers are shooting up sharply.
True... but they're still developing and will be making greater strides in economic development than we can catch up with new energy technology at current rate. IDK, maybe there will be a battery breakthrough in the next 10 years. God knows there's enough demand for it.
Feb 16th 2020, 01:14 PM   #65
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by stripler
True... but they're still developing and will be making greater strides in economic development than we can catch up with new energy technology at current rate. IDK, maybe there will be a battery breakthrough in the next 10 years. God knows there's enough demand for it.
Batteries donít produce electricity, they just store it. We should be helping them set up for growth via clean nuclear and solar energy.
stripler likes this.
Feb 16th 2020, 01:14 PM   #66
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
at this very moment you could say I'm anti-nuke plants..because of the way they are presently constructed and run...BUT there is a ray of sunshine with new reactors proposed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...limate-change/
Feb 16th 2020, 01:18 PM   #67
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
now onto batteries..aka electrical storage units...things are happening and fast...all of the arguments for burning fossil fuels are being left by the way side..well if stay on top of what's actually happening...

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/...r-over-the-air

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2...-free-battery/

there's more if you're willing to look...
Feb 16th 2020, 03:08 PM   #68
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadams66
at this very moment you could say I'm anti-nuke plants..because of the way they are presently constructed and run...BUT there is a ray of sunshine with new reactors proposed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...limate-change/
This will go nowhere until greens stop sabotaging it.
Feb 16th 2020, 03:42 PM   #69
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2016 R1, 1999 R1
You know, any economic endeavor would be cheaper if there were blanket laws passed saying the owner/operator/board were not liable for the damage they may cause. Thank god the world does not work that way.

Fukushima's total cost is around $450 billion. Chernobyl $450 billion. This is many times more than an operator is worth or has the potential to make and far more than the insurance they possess will cover. How does someone even estimate the costs of such disasters? That is the point.

This is not environmentalists getting regulations passed and making insurance prohibitively expensive. These are risk actuaries estimating what costs may be involved if the worst happens.

Current approach to nuclear disaster insurance in Europe

Nuclear insurance within Europe is governed by the Paris Convention and the Brussels Convention. Most European countries have signed and ratified one or other, or indeed both.

The two conventions place full liability on the operator, who must also provide insurance. But they also limit the operator's maximum liability.

If operators had to be insured for the whole potential damage, then, according to calculations by Versicherungsforen Leipzig GmbH for German nuclear power plants, this would lead to a price increase for nuclear energy of €0.139 to €2.36 per kWh. Calculations for France lead to a price increase of €0.047 per kWh.

This insurance cost would raise current electricity prices for the French nuclear industry by 60%, for the German industry by at least 100%, while electricity prices for households would increase by 25% in France and by 50% or more in Germany.

The certain result would be to make nuclear electricity uncompetitive. For this reason operator's maximum liability tends to be capped, as in the UK.

https://theecologist.org/2014/feb/06...-uncompetitive
Feb 16th 2020, 03:50 PM   #70
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
You know, any economic endeavor would be cheaper if there were blanket laws passed saying the owner/operator/board were not liable for the damage they may cause. Thank god the world does not work that way.
Thankfully this is not what I was talking about, but good on you for bringing a strawman to the fight, as usual.

I was talking about preventing endless lawsuits *before* the plant is built, as was the strategy of radical greenies for decades. That's what causing the costs of the new plants to skyrocket.

And we're still waiting on your proposal to what to do about the need for the baseload electricity generation, when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
Feb 16th 2020, 04:07 PM   #71
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
And we're still waiting on your proposal to what to do about the need for the baseload electricity generation, when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
well there's a simple answers to your question..which has been answered by many..many times over...the first one would be "storage" for when the wind doesn't blow (yeah that happens..all of a sudden worldwide the wind stops..at night too...what are we going to do "use it all up"?) or the sun isn't shinning...I think I referenced it in an earlier comment...
the second would be the newer nukes that have NONE of the problems "greenies" complain about or have lawsuits about...oh I referenced them too...
I know it can be hard for people..on both sides..to keep up with what is actually happening..but they should try and stop repeating old out of date information and ideas...times change..and faster than some can keep up with evidently...a guy wrote a book about that called "Future Shock"...

the more you know...

Edited by chadams66 on Feb 16th 2020 at 04:09 PM
Feb 16th 2020, 07:44 PM   #72
 craiger's Avatar
 
  Apr 2016
  Molalla

  2009 Aprilia RSVR, 2010 Honda VFR 1200f DCT
Ah jeezus F-in shit tits christ.. apples to oranges, no? What this planet needs is for half of it's population to be eliminated via the coronavirus. Problem solved. More or less. If I go, I go. I've lived on this planet long enough. I've contributed plenty of pollution and so has everyone reading this. Get over yourselves. If you wanna make a difference, do it. If not, arguing about semantics aint doin anyone any good. Put up or shut up.
Feb 16th 2020, 10:18 PM   #73
 stripler's Avatar
 
  Jun 2018
  PORTLAND

  2019 KTM Duke 790 / 2002 Honda XR400R
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
And we're still waiting on your proposal to what to do about the need for the baseload electricity generation, when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.
That's what the batteries are for.
Feb 17th 2020, 06:40 AM   #74
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
It's because the radical greens early on rejected the nuclear, because it enables population growth through the abundance of cheap clean electricity -
Nuclear is cheap and clean? Did you eat paint chips as a kid?

BTW, I've some prime real estate in Chernobyl, beachfront in Fukushima Prefecture for you. It's cheap. Clean! Just don't eat any of the food you might grow there, and the three-eyed dogs don't bite, much. The fish off the beach in Japan will be safe to eat in about 1,000 years.
Feb 17th 2020, 12:54 PM   #75
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
It's because the radical greens early on rejected the nuclear, because it enables population growth through the abundance of cheap clean electricity - oh the horror
yeah this statement is the weirdest (and that's being kind) one you've ever made..and that is saying something...just where in the hell did you get this one? this is the first time I know I've ever heard it..and hell I'm a greenie..I love to hug some trees...was it Rush?
did you actually type the words "cheap clean" and not bust out laughing yourself? you know what? everybody else did...

"The point is the trends, not the absolute numbers. Our numbers are going down a bit, while others' numbers are shooting up sharply." dude do you always get everything backward? who is it that tells you these things? your source of information really really sucks...you know that source makes you look bad..really bad...oh there's something about "absolute" numbers..they tell you which way the trend is trending...oops...do you read what you type?

Edited by chadams66 on Feb 17th 2020 at 01:23 PM
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