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Jul 26th 2017, 05:59 PM   #61
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver, HD Sportster
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
There's a logical, and scientific, reason the big Harley can stop quicker, and it's called physics. Because of the light weight, frame geometry, and the fact that the tiny rear brake on a sport bike is nearly useless, that "superbike" must rely solely on its front tire's contact patch to stop. The Harley, on the other hand has the weight and length to not worry about lifting the rear off the ground, which means twice the contact patch (same reason a car can stop quicker than the superbike as well). And then combine that with the fact that the rear rotor on Harleys is the same size as the front, and you get shorter stopping distances.
That is absolute and utter nonsense...even cars wear out front brakes 4 or 5 times faster than the rear brakes...ask any auto mechanic...the kinetics of braking are not up for debate...all road vehicles dive forward under heavy braking...

Harley-Davidson products can't...and most certainly don't...stop any faster than Sportbikes...
Jul 26th 2017, 09:11 PM   #62
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles...er_than_a_car/

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Jul 26th 2017, 09:24 PM   #63
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Your passion is clouding your logic. Though the Harley may pitch forward, it will exceed the grip of the front tire long before lifting the rear enough to render the rear brake useless. The sport bike, on the other hand is designed for more weight to already be set on the front wheel (enabling better grip in corners). With the CG of the sport bike higher and farther forward, it will lift the rear off the ground long before exceeding the grip of the front tire. And the riders own body weight contributes to this. A sport bike rider sits much higher and angled forward, so under hard braking the rider themselves are pushed forward over the front tire. The cruiser rider, on the other hand sits much lower and farther back. Though they may move forward some during hard braking, they are not significantly altering the CG.

Also, a Harley Street Glide, running 3 11.5 inch rotors has more braking surface than any sport bike. And combine that with the noticeable lack of rear tire lift means more real braking grip.

Even Ducati shows that the Diavel will out brake the Panagale.

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Jul 26th 2017, 10:26 PM   #64
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver, HD Sportster
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Your passion is clouding your logic. Though the Harley may pitch forward, it will exceed the grip of the front tire long before lifting the rear enough to render the rear brake useless. The sport bike, on the other hand is designed for more weight to already be set on the front wheel (enabling better grip in corners). With the CG of the sport bike higher and farther forward, it will lift the rear off the ground long before exceeding the grip of the front tire. And the riders own body weight contributes to this. A sport bike rider sits much higher and angled forward, so under hard braking the rider themselves are pushed forward over the front tire. The cruiser rider, on the other hand sits much lower and farther back. Though they may move forward some during hard braking, they are not significantly altering the CG.

Also, a Harley Street Glide, running 3 11.5 inch rotors has more braking surface than any sport bike. And combine that with the noticeable lack of rear tire lift means more real braking grip.

Even Ducati shows that the Diavel will out brake the Panagale.
I hope to God you really don't believe this. It's total braking surface/total contact patch. The bikes are designed to be as close to 50-50 front/rear as you can and the rider weighted at center of mass. There's no "magic kinetics" on any machine...which is why people like the MSF tell you 70% of your braking is at the front and it's not a machine-specific phenomena.

Please oh please don't try and sell motorcycles this way because if you tell a customer something even remotely akin to virtually anything you've said thus far...you open yourself up to all kinds of crazy liability issues...

I'm going to discontinue talking about this because it's clearly not productive...
Jul 27th 2017, 08:48 AM   #65
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Since you seem unable to do research yourself:

www.mcnews.com/mcn/articles/2015_01PerfIndex.pdf
Jul 27th 2017, 09:03 AM   #66
 PeteN95's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Muklilteo, WA

  Suzuki DL1000, Honda XR650R, KTM 250 XC-W
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Your passion is clouding your logic. Though the Harley may pitch forward, it will exceed the grip of the front tire long before lifting the rear enough to render the rear brake useless. The sport bike, on the other hand is designed for more weight to already be set on the front wheel (enabling better grip in corners). With the CG of the sport bike higher and farther forward, it will lift the rear off the ground long before exceeding the grip of the front tire. And the riders own body weight contributes to this. A sport bike rider sits much higher and angled forward, so under hard braking the rider themselves are pushed forward over the front tire. The cruiser rider, on the other hand sits much lower and farther back. Though they may move forward some during hard braking, they are not significantly altering the CG.

Also, a Harley Street Glide, running 3 11.5 inch rotors has more braking surface than any sport bike. And combine that with the noticeable lack of rear tire lift means more real braking grip.

Even Ducati shows that the Diavel will out brake the Panagale.
Some of what you say is true. Some Harleys will outbrake sportbikes by a small margin because they are able to brake harder without lifting the rear of the bike. This is due to wheelbase and Center of Gravity (CG), not really weight distribution, although that may vary slightly also. Sportbikes trade off some braking ability in order to gain cornering ability. Taller ride height improves lean angle and along with a short wheelbase raises CG and improves cornering, in which sportbikes have a massive advantage of any Harley.

The difference in braking ability is small and the skill and reaction time of the rider play a much larger factor than the motorcycle. Also, the Panigale has 2 13" rotors up front which are full floating, drilled, and have 4 piston radially mounted Brembo calipers, which are capable of much great braking force than the relatively crude Harley brakes. The Harley may be able to stop faster once with a good rider, but the brakes would probably boil if done repeatedly. And this is the Street Glide, many Harleys only have a single, non-floating disc up front.

Edited by PeteN95 on Jul 27th 2017 at 09:06 AM
Jul 27th 2017, 09:46 AM   #67
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Actually, all Harleys run floating rotors on the front now (even my '06 runs a stock drilled, floating rotor on the front), and most Big Twins are running Brembo calipers and master cylinders.

Where sport bikes braking capabilities shine is in the area of continuous hard braking. They suffer less from brake fade. But, since that only plays out on the track, and with illegally fast riding on the street, then it matters nothing in real world circumstances.

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Edited by VeritasImageryNW on Jul 27th 2017 at 03:50 PM
Jul 28th 2017, 07:51 AM   #68
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
I trust the brakes on my C14 way more than I ever did on a harley.
I have used my Connie brakes to the full once or twice, full, hard pull and crossed my fingers the ABS would work, which it did. That bigass bike slowed down right away and I was impressed. The Harleys I had always felt like I was slowing a semi truck on one of those runaway gravel ramps. They get all sloppy and they handle like a boat on the brakes whereas the Kawasaki continues to be stable and responsive.

The thing about Harley is that a lot of weight is below the axle height, which makes all the difference in handling, including braking. It keep front end dive as low as possible. The Connie carries its weight pretty high by comparison.

That said -

Michigan state cops did a compare-o a while back, and their results might surprise you:
It is a single-point test, and it seems counter-intuitive to me (I'd rather do it myself to be sure...but I don't have a Road King to test out).



But the trump card in all of this is another thing altogether - speed.

Stopping distance depends primarily on speed. I don't know about anyone else, but I have almost never been passed by a Harley. Harley riders , generalization here, probably ride slower than ZX-10 riders, and so they can almost always stop quicker.



But - there is also "thinking distance" which is the time between recognizing a need to stop and taking actions to stop. When I am going fast I am always paying very, very close attention, and am mentally prepared to respond to conditions. I've seen many Harleys lined up outside of beer/burger joints and I suspect thinking distance is something else for the guys coming out after a pitcher of Bud Lite and a double burger with extra fries.

Some of you will know about this place. What kind of stopping distance you think your average shipyard biker bro has when he leaves here?

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Edited by Sentinel on Jul 28th 2017 at 08:03 AM
Jul 28th 2017, 12:19 PM   #69
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
Some of you will know about this place. What kind of stopping distance you think your average shipyard biker bro has when he leaves here?

I've talked and ridden with some cruiser guys and they've all told me "they can handle it"..meaning drinking and riding...after all the number of beers you can down and still ride proves what a man you are in heir eyes...heck it's one of the reasons they ride Harleys..they're MEN and not boys zipping around and crashing all of the time on their little sport bikes...believe me I heard that way more than once...
Jul 28th 2017, 05:20 PM   #70
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
So here's something to consider, if the "superiority" of one street bike over the other requires it to be taken off the street (i.e racetrack) or to exceed traffic laws, then is it really a superior "street" bike?

For example, let's take a 2017 Panigale 1299 S and a 2017 HD Street Glide and ride them from Belfair, around the canal, and back to Belfair. Only a couple rules, you cannot violate any traffic laws (i.e. cannot exceed posted speed limits, can only pass in passing zones, etc.) and you cannot stop except for fuel or a vehicle malfunction. Under those "real world" conditions, will the Ducati prove itself "superior"?

I keep hearing comments like: "but I have almost never been passed by a Harley..." as if exceeding speed limits is the key to enjoyable motorcycle riding. Which brings us all the way back to what I originally said. The "superiority" on "inferiority" of one motorcycle over another is solely based upon the opinion and requirements of the person riding it.
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Jul 28th 2017, 10:22 PM   #71
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

Truth! The wife and I had that conversation over dinner. I was thinking of selling my 1000 V-Strom as I got a Yamaha TMAX scooter 530 and find it more comfortable. We did 300 miles the other day on the TMAX doubled up at 70-80 mph and she stated it was one of the most comfortable bikes she has ever been on. But then she told me I should keep the 'Strom because "It is faster."... Whaaaat?????
Jul 29th 2017, 08:05 AM   #72
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
as if exceeding speed limits is the key to enjoyable motorcycle riding.
1. I sold my CBR and bought a C14 for the reasons in your post - better IRL bike.
2. But and however - ass-hauling is in fact the actual most-fun part of riding.

They like to say it's the journey. But population density and cellphones and ass-holery have killed that notion.

Now it's the destination.
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Jul 29th 2017, 08:31 AM   #73
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
1. I sold my CBR and bought a C14 for the reasons in your post - better IRL bike.
2. But and however - ass-hauling is in fact the actual most-fun part of riding.

They like to say it's the journey. But population density and cellphones and ass-holery have killed that notion.

Now it's the destination.
Again, personal opinion. I don't find hauling ass that much fun anymore. Sure, maybe hitting a set of twisties on the CBR is good, now and then, but 8.5 times out of 10 I'm gonna grab the Harley.

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Jul 29th 2017, 08:58 AM   #74
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
And isn't that the beauty of having so many different types of bikes available? We can all find one...or two...or a dozen to fit our tastes.

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Jul 29th 2017, 01:22 PM   #75
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
this is one possible solution -

been thinking about it.....
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