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Nov 28th 2017, 03:39 PM   #181
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
The Fat Bob has always had a different look to it. They really didn't stray too far from that look with the new one, other than it not being a twin-shock Dyna, the inverted forks, and the funky rectangular LED headlight (over the funky, dual round headlight).

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Nov 28th 2017, 03:40 PM   #182
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainAwesome
Alright gentlemen, I'm done.

I've said my peace, those who may have been curious as to why someone would by a Harley now know my opinion. I'm done feeding the trolls.

So, here's this
























And one last Harley.
I'll take the last one, please.

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Nov 28th 2017, 03:45 PM   #183
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Notice how you actually avoided answering the question?

Whether something "out-performs" or "underperformance" can only be pronounced once one other criteria is defined. And that criteria is: purpose. "What is the designed purpose of the vehicle?"

You say that one of your bikes is "better" than the other, but don't clarify better at What? And then, based upon solely numbers your bikes are totally inferior and underperform. So why do you own them? Is there something other than just numbers that draw you too them, that makes you ride them?



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nice try...
my Versys is better at most all aspects of motorcycling than my R80 other than long distance comfort (and it's barely better..but I can tell the difference)...well there's looks..but that's subjective...
name your purpose..it would seem to be comfort with cruisers...I can think of lots of bikes that are more comfortable (hell Harley riders are the only ones that NEED kidney belts that I know of)...I know people who sold their Harleys because they weren't and couldn't get comfortable on them...they weren't happy about it either..they loved their HD...
Versys=650 twin...I love me some 650 vertical twins (and am willing to live with their limitations)
R80RT..not sure why I love this bike..but I know it's no performance king and I don't care either...
the thing I haven't found out (and why I don't own one) is the "purpose" of a Harley...lol (it's a joke man..a joke)...

Edited by chadams66 on Nov 28th 2017 at 03:50 PM
Nov 28th 2017, 03:49 PM   #184
 paradox206's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Des Moines

  M1200s, VFR800 & GSXR750
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
The Fat Bob has always had a different look to it. They really didn't stray too far from that look with the new one, other than it not being a twin-shock Dyna, the inverted forks, and the funky rectangular LED headlight (over the funky, dual round headlight).

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Well, it could be said I was just parroting what Brad Richards said in the interview. All I know is what catches my eye (this and the 883xl Iron) and the only HD I've ridden (my buddies 13 Dyna).
Nov 28th 2017, 05:38 PM   #185
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainAwesome


Isn't this Honda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainAwesome

And one last Harley.
I'd ride that one!
Nov 28th 2017, 05:45 PM   #186
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
But that fails as well, then. Why? Because again car ownership, like bikes, comes down to something more than just numbers. That's the whole point.
And yet you keep bringing up analogies that have objective differences in them, not just intangible Harleyness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
You, as well, chose a bike that based solely on numbers is an "underperforming" and "inferior" motorcycle. So there had to have been some other criteria that you used to determine that this was the "better" bike for you. Maybe you preferred the looks, maybe it was how it fit you, but chances are it was something highly subjective. Something made you decide that you didn't need the quickest, lightest, most agile motorcycle in production.
Absolutely. The difference is, I am not trying to argue that it is something that it isn't.

One last time: when I give grief to Harley owners, it's not because they simply want a Harley. It's when they start pretending that the Harleys have some objective advantage, like torque, or touring abilities, or comfort, or fit and finish, or reliability, or some other bullshit that is being peddled by them for decades, on and on and on.

For some mysterious reasons, Harley faithful are not content with simply preferring an objectively inferior motorcycle for purely subjective reasons, and peddle this bullshit to justify their choice as a rational one. And that is utterly ridiculous. Also very entertaining...
Nov 28th 2017, 06:02 PM   #187
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Isn't this Honda?
Nope, that's an HD Fat Boy.
Nov 28th 2017, 06:08 PM   #188
 unicykle's Avatar
 
  Sep 2017
  milwaukie oregon

  rc51 Aprilia rsv
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Isn't this Honda?



I'd ride that one!
Long test ride, but That one looks real high maintaince To me
Nov 28th 2017, 09:53 PM   #189
 alienbogey's Avatar
 
  Feb 2016
  Gig Harbor

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
.

One last time: when I give grief to Harley owners, it's not because they simply want a Harley. It's when they start pretending that the Harleys have some objective advantage, like torque, or touring abilities, or comfort, or fit and finish, or reliability, or some other bullshit that is being peddled by them for decades, on and on and on.

For some mysterious reasons, Harley faithful are not content with simply preferring an objectively inferior motorcycle for purely subjective reasons, and peddle this bullshit to justify their choice as a rational one. And that is utterly ridiculous. Also very entertaining...
Not to pick on you, LP, but because sometimes I enjoy a good discussion (and it's f'g raining).

Harley's DO have objective advantage compare to some bikes, and disadvantages compared to others. From your list quoted above:

• Torque: Objectively measurable. But, what, are you going to find the bike with the highest torque on the planet (Boss Hoss?), and say that it is therefore the only bike on the planet that can list "torque" as an objective advantage, and every other bike must therefore list torque as an objective disadvantage? I submit that HD's generally excellent, usable, low rpm range torque is an objective advantage, if that's what you're after, over many or most other motorcycles.

• Touring abilities: Depends on the model, of course, and it's fairly hard to objectively quantify, but, seriously, I don't see how that doesn't land in the plus column for HD

• Comfort: Sorry, but you list COMFORT has an objective quality?? If someone finds that a Sportster, or a Goldwing, or an S1000RR, or a Grom is the most comfortable motorcycle they've ever ridden, who the hell are you or me to tell them they're wrong? Is your own particular ass the universally agreed upon measuring stick of motorcycle comfort?

• Fit and finish: Again, hard to quantify. I don't claim to be an expert, but as best as I can objectively tell from kicking the tires of motorcycles on showroom floors for decades, I'd put HD in the top third manufacturers for fit and finish. YMMV because it's more of a subjective opinion than objective fact in the absence of impartial 3rd party measurements. Speaking of which......

• Reliability:

Consumer Reports, April 7, 2015:

Reliablity by brand
Brand Percent failed*

Yamaha/Star 11%
Suzuki 12
Honda 12
Kawasaki 15
Victory 17
Harley-Davidson 26
Triumph 29
Ducati 33
BMW 40
Can-Am 42

*a reported failure in the first four years of ownership

HD is sixth out of 10. Not stellar, and its Yamaha with the bragging rights here, but objectively better than Triumph, Ducati, BMW, and Can-Am

Which allows me to circle back to an earlier post of yours from this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Whatever you need from a cruiser - name it - Ducati does better.
I answered at the time with four examples (more HD dealerships, more independent shops with knowledge of HD's than Ducatis, more HD customization options, eligibility for Hells Angels membership).

You granted me the Hells Angels (and I thereby claim that I won the challenge).

But, objectively, if you think that fewer available dealerships are better than more, I guess Ducati is better.

If you feel that fewer shops with experience working on your brand of bike is objectively better than more, then I guess Ducati is better.

If you feel that fewer custom options are objectively better than more customization options, then I guess Ducati is better.

And if you feel that 33% reported failures is better than 26% reported failures, then Ducati is objectively more reliable than HD.

But, I submit that none of the above matters because, subjectively, you prefer the Ducati. Just don't - to adapt your own phrasing - justify your preference for Ducatis by putting out the bullshit that they are more reliable than Harleys.

But liking or disliking a motorcycle is an inherently subjective thing. I mean, a strong case can be made that, objectively, motorcycles are just plain stupid in the first place (unstable, non-existant crash protection, hard to see, etc etc). If we were all being objective none of us would ride.

Another point is that it is perfectly reasonable that objective numbers can be both inferior to other machines and a pure positive to the rider who likes that motorcycle. Taking HD out of the equation, I really, really like my BMW R nineT, and I will gladly discuss with other riders how much its objectively measured 110hp pleases me.

But wait, how can I do that without being full of shit because, after all, the S1000RR has 197 hp, and the HP4 now ups that by about 25hp, and the supercharged track only Kawi H2R piles another 100hp on top of that?

I guess I'll just keep liking my motorcycle and telling people if they ask that it has 110hp and I consider it to be a positive attribute of the bike. If they consider me to be entertainingly full of bullshit because it's not objectively the most powerful motorcycle in the world I guess I'll just somehow have to learn to live with that.

Now, if the rain will just stop, liberpolly, let's go for a ride together.
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Edited by alienbogey on Nov 28th 2017 at 10:11 PM
Nov 28th 2017, 10:31 PM   #190
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey

Harley's DO have objective advantage compare to some bikes, and disadvantages compared to others. From your list quoted above:

• Torque: Objectively measurable. But, what, are you going to find the bike with the highest torque on the planet (Boss Hoss?), and say that it is therefore the only bike on the planet that can list "torque" as an objective advantage, and every other bike must therefore list torque as an objective disadvantage? I submit that HD's generally excellent, usable, low rpm range torque is an objective advantage, if that's what you're after, over many or most other motorcycles.
It is ON PAR with comparable motorcycles which have many other advantages over Harley. It does not exceed them on this criteria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey

• Touring abilities: Depends on the model, of course, and it's fairly hard to objectively quantify, but, seriously, I don't see how that doesn't land in the plus column for HD
Again, it’s ON PAR. It’s not a plus column for Harley, it’s neutral column, not in the minus column either. Given their other comparable disadvantages, it does not put them ahead.

As a side note, in data science, when it’s hard to objectively quantify something, we resort to what is called “expert survey”. Vast majority of expert would give the touring ability advantage to other motorcycles. For example, Ducati Multistrada

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey
• Comfort: Sorry, but you list COMFORT has an objective quality?? If someone finds that a Sportster, or a Goldwing, or an S1000RR, or a Grom is the most comfortable motorcycle they've ever ridden, who the hell are you or me to tell them they're wrong? Is your own particular ass the universally agreed upon measuring stick of motorcycle comfort?
That’s one is even easier - average hours in the saddle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey

• Fit and finish: Again, hard to quantify. I don't claim to be an expert, but as best as I can objectively tell from kicking the tires of motorcycles on showroom floors for decades, I'd put HD in the top third manufacturers for fit and finish. YMMV because it's more of a subjective opinion than objective fact in the absence of impartial 3rd party measurements. Speaking of which......
Agree. “Top third”, however, is not “superior”. Other motorcycles in this top third lineup have many objective advantages over Harley.

Again, the Harley faithful claim that it is *superior*, not merely “in the top third”

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey


• Reliability:
Reliablity by brand
Brand Percent failed*

Yamaha/Star 11%
Suzuki 12
Honda 12
Kawasaki 15
Victory 17
Harley-Davidson 26
Triumph 29
Ducati 33
BMW 40
Can-Am 42

*a reported failure in the first four years of ownership

HD is sixth out of 10. Not stellar, and its Yamaha with the bragging rights here, but objectively better than Triumph, Ducati, BMW, and Can-Am
Yes. See my point above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey
I answered at the time with four examples (more HD dealerships, more independent shops with knowledge of HD's than Ducatis, more HD customization options, eligibility for Hells Angels membership).

You granted me the Hells Angels (and I thereby claim that I won the challenge).

But, objectively, if you think that fewer available dealerships are better than more, I guess Ducati is better.

If you feel that fewer shops with experience working on your brand of bike is objectively better than more, then I guess Ducati is better.

If you feel that fewer custom options are objectively better than more customization options, then I guess Ducati is better.

And if you feel that 33% reported failures is better than 26% reported failures, then Ducati is objectively more reliable than HD.
I fully grant that Harley is objectively better than Ducati for the vast segment of buying public that wants to join Hells Angels.

Cruiser, unlike touring bike, is not meant to stray too far from the base, so the network of dealerships is not a critical issue. But yes, for another segment of population that likes to tour on cruisers, Harley is better than Ducati, but significantly worse than Japanese competitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey

But, I submit that none of the above matters because, subjectively, you prefer the Ducati. Just don't - to adapt your own phrasing - justify your preference for Ducatis by putting out the bullshit that they are more reliable than Harleys.
Funny thing - I don’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienbogey
Another point is that it is perfectly reasonable that objective numbers can be both inferior to other machines and a pure positive to the rider who likes that motorcycle. Taking HD out of the equation, I really, really like my BMW R nineT, and I will gladly discuss with other riders how much its objectively measured 110hp pleases me.

But wait, how can I do that without being full of shit because, after all, the S1000RR has 197 hp, and the HP4 now ups that by about 25hp, and the supercharged track only Kawi H2R piles another 100hp on top of that?

I guess I'll just keep liking my motorcycle and telling people if they ask that it has 110hp and I consider it to be a positive attribute of the bike. If they consider me to be entertainingly full of bullshit because it's not objectively the most powerful motorcycle in the world I guess I'll just somehow have to learn to live with that.

Now, if the rain will just stop, liberpolly, let's go for a ride together.
Amen to all that!
Nov 28th 2017, 10:59 PM   #191
 Willow's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Silverdale, WA

  848evo, DRZ400SM, XR100
I'll just say this: DO NOT BY A DUCATI!

*They're terrible motorcycles.

*Everyone hates you out on the road and try's to kill you.

*Ducati runs out of gas, all the time, on the open road.

*Ducati will even run out of gas, right in the middle of a session, on a track day

*Ducati riders are always looking for a gas station first, in a group ride.

*People always come up and asks you how fast will the Ducati go

*Can't see diddly squat, at night, with Ducati stock head lights.

*Can't see diddly squat behind you with the Ducati stock mirrors. (I think Ducati has been working on that)

*Ducati can't win a world title in motoGP

*The cops will always pull a Ducati rider over

*Ducati riders always get made fun of..........for going on a long, 5 mile ride, down to Starbucks.

Again, DON'T BUY DUCATI! They're just terrible!


Edit: Buy a HD
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Edited by Willow on Nov 28th 2017 at 11:06 PM
Nov 29th 2017, 07:45 AM   #192
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
Re: don't buy a Duc.

Aw man I was half an inch away from a Duc 1100S Hyper. But I just.can't.do.it. I don't freaking trust them.

Same same for KTM. I almost got a 990SMT last summer but - KTM's can be PITA.

But the Harley's I have had were reliable as hammers. I could totally recommend the TC88 Harley's. Best motor they ever made. All downhill after that. They had to bump the displacement to counteract all the compliance choking they installed.

Now it's, what, 114ci and the same power as the 88's?
Nov 29th 2017, 09:11 AM   #193
 
  Jan 2016
  92 miles from Windy Ridge, Mt. St. Helens

  2017 FZ-07; Z1000 Kawi; '84+'85 RZ350; '76 RD400; '74 & '75 RD350; '66 Suzuki X6 250..a few others
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cougar
Great. I know a couple who've lived in a very nice, new upscale neighborhood for a couple of years. They are now house hunting because the asshole who moved in next door SAVES LIVES and is REALLY COOL. They will be losing thousands of dollars in fees just to get away from MR. COOL.
Oh, the humanity! You think that's bad? How about the City announcing, with just a few weeks of "comments" (so they can rubber-stamp it) they're going to site a huge new, comprehensive Homeless Day Center 200 feet from your front door. Talk about losing thousands....oh wait, it'll be tens of thousands. Day Center, meaning they're kicked out @ 5:00pm. Guess where they'll be sleeping.....

And before anyone accuses me of not having any empathy, I've both worked with and contributed $$ for decades to Habitat for Humanity, among others. I believe in pro-active hands up, not endless handouts...

Now, back to the previous program of HD-bashing. Wait, first I'd like to say that it would've been nice if HD had done something like the Storz replica with Eric, instead of pulling the plug and f*cking him over:
Attached Thumbnails
-storzhd.jpg  
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Edited by Quicklimegirl on Nov 29th 2017 at 09:17 AM
Nov 29th 2017, 03:25 PM   #194
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow
I'll just say this: DO NOT BY A DUCATI!

*They're terrible motorcycles.

*Everyone hates you out on the road and try's to kill you.

*Ducati runs out of gas, all the time, on the open road.

*Ducati will even run out of gas, right in the middle of a session, on a track day

*Ducati riders are always looking for a gas station first, in a group ride.

*People always come up and asks you how fast will the Ducati go

*Can't see diddly squat, at night, with Ducati stock head lights.

*Can't see diddly squat behind you with the Ducati stock mirrors. (I think Ducati has been working on that)

*Ducati can't win a world title in motoGP

*The cops will always pull a Ducati rider over

*Ducati riders always get made fun of..........for going on a long, 5 mile ride, down to Starbucks.

Again, DON'T BUY DUCATI! They're just terrible!


Edit: Buy a HD
That's only if you buy a *real* Ducati. My Diavel is just a wannabe cruiser, so at least the lights and mirrors are good. And cops wave at me!
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