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Aug 25th 2017, 01:48 PM   #91
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver, HD Sportster
I firmly believe that if William S. Harley and Arthur Davidson could see the state of the company today making this niche...almost vintage bike...they would shit themselves. The leadership of this company isn't "leading" anything certainly not their own industry which they fairly well owned & controlled outright for at least two decades...and...were the only major manufacturer of motorcycles which survived World War II.

Now is the time to do something...project LiveWire needs to go live...you need to get Bill Davidson out of that museum and back in the marketing and technical side of that business and make that shit go...this is going to be one big continuing decline...unless they do something spectacularly different...

I really do love them and I love some of their older products but I mean there's no incentive for me to buy something brand new when there's 1260 or so on Craigslist...right now...
Aug 25th 2017, 05:05 PM   #92
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  The spunk-filled wanksock formerly known as Portland

  R1200ST, CB350
As the article points out, it's weird they never put the Revolution (V-Rod) engine into anything else.
Aug 25th 2017, 05:38 PM   #93
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Those "expanding" sales are only with companies that are already small time manufacturers in the US.
No. All of them were expanding in 2015, when Harley was already shrinking. You cannot fudge the numbers to your liking.
Aug 25th 2017, 10:28 PM   #94
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver, HD Sportster
It's a pretty safe bet they're never going to discount or run any significant promotional pricing on anything with an MSRP above $13K...and the cost pressure from the used/resale market is just staggering. You can buy a clean Dyna on CL for $5K-6K. There's guys buying auction bikes and setting up these little near-zero-overhead "mini-dealerships"...with nothing but HD product...every single one of those sales cannibalizes at least a potential used bike sale at a named dealership.

I just don't know how the guys with a permanent sales staff and leased facility can compete with that kind of stuff long-term. In Southwest Texas there are 3 Costco-sized warehouses full to the brim with HD product awaiting auction. Sooner or later all that metal is going to hit the street and the result is going to be not so good for new vehicle sales...it's almost a perfect storm of stuff that's happening...

Edited by ShootPDX on Aug 26th 2017 at 07:20 AM
Aug 26th 2017, 07:49 AM   #95
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
No. All of them were expanding in 2015, when Harley was already shrinking. You cannot fudge the numbers to your liking.
If ALL were expanding, then why did the overall market decline by over 2% in 2016? Which is the year we have been talking about. If you look at the overall numbers, the drop in sales in 2016, eliminated the market growth of 2015, but still keeps us above the sales in 2012.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/new...s-2016-usa-uk/

https://gearheads.org/us-motorcycle-...n-2016-by-2-1/

BMW Motorcycle sales down in USA - BMW Motorcycle Owners of America

And here is from the first part of 2017

https://www.bizjournals.com/milwauke...ket-share.html

Harley-Davidson Gains Market Share in Q1, But Sees U.S. Motorcycle Sales Dip - Motorcycle & Powersports News
Aug 26th 2017, 10:38 AM   #96
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
If ALL were expanding, then why did the overall market decline by over 2% in 2016?
Because growth in 2015 does not preclude shrinking in 2016? What is the point of your nonsensical question? To avoid addressing the fact that Harley's troubles cannot be explained by the overall market conditions?
Aug 26th 2017, 11:42 AM   #97
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Because growth in 2015 does not preclude shrinking in 2016? What is the point of your nonsensical question? To avoid addressing the fact that Harley's troubles cannot be explained by the overall market conditions?
And why do you bring up 2015 when we were talking about 2016? The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what industry you are talking about, when one manufacturer controls the vast majority of the market for decades, it is inevitable that others will eventually start eating into that share. And to add to that the desperate situation that the entire market encountered several years back, the overall economy, and you have the overall motorcycle industry is struggling to recover.

Another thing to remember, especially for those that say that Harley is wrong for sticking to the "tradition" of the brand, is where they were back in the '80s. They were in such a bad place that they asked the federal government to impose a tariff on all imported motorcycles over 700cc. They needed that in order to compete in a market that was being dominated by the Japanese. And what has happened? They went from running behind the Japanese builders to dominating the over 600cc street bike market, and not by a little, but by 70% at one point. Think about that. They went from being nearly bankrupt, to being the number one street bike builder in the country. And how did they do that? Marketing. They marketed a "tradition", a "lifestyle". Harleys went from being the "dirty" brand, that only hard core bikers wanted, to being the brand for the wealthy. They moved forward with technology slowly, because staying with the "tradition" was important for the brand name. And really, those that wanted Harley's wanted that tradition. They weren't demanding radical changes. Hell, even today, the only people wanting radical changes from Harley are the people that don't really want a "Harley", they want a import cruiser with a Harley badge.

Is Harley's sales sinking? Not really. Have they dropped? Yep. But that's to be expected. And remember, as well, that Harley's sales internationally are increasing. So you have to ask, if Harley sales are increasing everywhere but in the US, is it a brand problem, or an overall US market problem?
Aug 26th 2017, 08:22 PM   #98
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
And why do you bring up 2015 when we were talking about 2016?
Because, as I said, in 2015 Harley sales were shrinking when everyone else sales were growing, therefore Harley's shrinking sales cannot be blamed on overall motorcycle market. Why is such a simple statement so hard for your to understand?
Aug 26th 2017, 08:23 PM   #99
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
They went from being nearly bankrupt, to being the number one street bike builder in the country.
Considering that they were the only street bike builder in the country, this statement doesn't make sense.
Aug 26th 2017, 08:28 PM   #100
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
And remember, as well, that Harley's sales internationally are increasing. So you have to ask, if Harley sales are increasing everywhere but in the US, is it a brand problem, or an overall US market problem?
And the answer is, of course - nope. Harley sales internationally shrunk 1.8% in the 1st quarter of 2017 and 2.3% in the 2nd quarter, compared to 2016.

Seriously now.
Aug 27th 2017, 10:11 AM   #101
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver, HD Sportster
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Another thing to remember, especially for those that say that Harley is wrong for sticking to the "tradition" of the brand, is where they were back in the '80s. They were in such a bad place that they asked the federal government to impose a tariff on all imported motorcycles over 700cc. They needed that in order to compete in a market that was being dominated by the Japanese. And what has happened? They went from running behind the Japanese builders to dominating the over 600cc street bike market, and not by a little, but by 70% at one point. Think about that. They went from being nearly bankrupt, to being the number one street bike builder in the country. And how did they do that? Marketing. They marketed a "tradition", a "lifestyle". Harleys went from being the "dirty" brand, that only hard core bikers wanted, to being the brand for the wealthy. They moved forward with technology slowly, because staying with the "tradition" was important for the brand name. And really, those that wanted Harley's wanted that tradition. They weren't demanding radical changes. Hell, even today, the only people wanting radical changes from Harley are the people that don't really want a "Harley", they want a import cruiser with a Harley badge.

Is Harley's sales sinking? Not really. Have they dropped? Yep. But that's to be expected. And remember, as well, that Harley's sales internationally are increasing. So you have to ask, if Harley sales are increasing everywhere but in the US, is it a brand problem, or an overall US market problem?
A serious and major technical advancement...the aluminum Evo...happened...in 1984. The theory of the US government "saving" Harley is not shared by most folks. Harley wasn't building anything anyone wanted to buy prior to 1984...period. Bikes leaked oil...overheated...the AMF bikes were mechanical nightmares...still are. The twin-cam...introduced in 1999...was also a huge technical step...backward...and since that time...marketshare has pretty much fallen off...

Forget marketing...in 1984 Harley built a bike what would not grenade or leak out all its oil under your tailbone...

So...this notion that technical advancement alone will not save MoCo...not really true...technical advancement is the only thing that will save it...

Edited by ShootPDX on Aug 27th 2017 at 03:35 PM
Aug 27th 2017, 04:00 PM   #102
 CaptainAwesome's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  WA

  Lowrider S
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootPDX
So...this notion that technical advancement alone will not save MoCo...not really true...technical advancement is the only thing that will save it...
Well, that and people who love the feel and ride of a Harley despite anything that can be argued online.
VeritasImageryNW likes this.
Aug 27th 2017, 06:24 PM   #103
 cgt1229's Avatar
 
  Feb 2016
  Bellingham

  Suzuki
Just ride...let the manufacturers do what they do-buy, sell, acquire.

Why are folks even disputing something that we have no control over. In the end, whatever the outcome, we still get to ride any brand we choose.

It almost seems like individuals are fighting over how much they know about the motorcycle industry vs. the next person.

I do like following long threads, such as the June 15th 2015 @ the Ridge, but no threads (some-very few) on this new forum have covered something really tangible that the average rider has been involved with personally.
Sep 7th 2017, 11:38 AM   #104
 Tripledij's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Custer WA

  Aprilia Tuono 1100
Looks like Royal Enfield might be the one.

Royal Enfield set to buy Ducati as new 210 hp 1100c V4 Stradale engine is shown
Sep 7th 2017, 12:49 PM   #105
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  The spunk-filled wanksock formerly known as Portland

  R1200ST, CB350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripledij
It's interesting that in 2015 they established a US Headquarters and a dealership in Milwaukee.

Royal Enfield revs up U.S. bike sales

They sell a lot of bikes, #5 worldwide, but according to this article 95% of the sales are still in India.
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