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Jun 29th 2017, 08:10 AM   #46
 DocB's Avatar
 
  Feb 2016
  Poulsbo, WA

  Aprilia RSV Mille, CB77, CB750K, CB750F
They thought that they could erase a 70 million dollar debt in 10 months? They should have started a go fund me page.

I think one issue of note here is why, when sport bike sales were down everywhere, did MV see a 50% increase in sales? Is that simply due to association with Harley?

The other question is who at HD thinks that buying Ducati is a smart thing to do in light of their history with Aermacchi and MV Agusta?

Seems to me that HD might do well buying an American arms manufacturer or major bourbon distillery. Their prime skill set seems to be lifestyle marketing and that would allow them to work in a demographic they are well experienced with. Harley owners, please don't take this as an insult. I think HDs branding and marketing skills are unparalleled.
Jun 29th 2017, 08:11 AM   #47
 
  Jan 2016
  Oregon

  2017 Kaw Ninja 1000 ABS (Z1000SX)
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Again, not really stealing customers from the big Sports Car brands. It's a completely different machine. Remember that it's an "American" take on a track car. It's taking a distinctly American muscle car and making it track worthy, not the same as making an American sports car.
Well, the ZL1 is the tamer version. It's very well done, and it's basically a larger Corvette. Which of course is another fantastic American automobile at a fraction of the cost of Ferrari, Lambo, etc. You really don't know who's stealing from who, do you? I guarantee you there are a lot more buyers at $70K then there are at $250K. At that price, even the Europeans have to think twice.

If you could buy a $10K bike with the same specs as the Panigale 1299, you'd be a fool not to consider it. Or else, you would be so concerned with impressing people you don't know, and creating your 'image' as to spend your money foolishly. I think MV falls into this category. It's a beautiful bike, but it's really a lot of nothing these days, and you can pick up used ones for peanuts.

So Ducati's are very nice, but nothing that can't be 95% matched for half the price. Italian cachet is a powerful thing, but Technology marches forward, and I like to think smart buyers want performance more than fancy styling.
Jun 29th 2017, 08:21 AM   #48
 DocB's Avatar
 
  Feb 2016
  Poulsbo, WA

  Aprilia RSV Mille, CB77, CB750K, CB750F
Quote:
So Ducati's are very nice, but nothing that can't be 95% matched for half the price. Italian cachet is a powerful thing, but Technology marches forward, and I like to think smart buyers want performance more than fancy styling.
I think a fair number of people would say you could remove word Ducati, and substitute Harley. And I would suggest that Ducati seems to have a fairly good handle on capital T technology at the moment, in light of their MotoGP record this year. If we really want to talk Technology though, this should probably be a thread on electric bikes and cars.
Jun 29th 2017, 08:25 AM   #49
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Dragon



'nuf said
Jun 29th 2017, 10:35 AM   #50
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman
Well, the ZL1 is the tamer version. It's very well done, and it's basically a larger Corvette. Which of course is another fantastic American automobile at a fraction of the cost of Ferrari, Lambo, etc. You really don't know who's stealing from who, do you? I guarantee you there are a lot more buyers at $70K then there are at $250K. At that price, even the Europeans have to think twice.

If you could buy a $10K bike with the same specs as the Panigale 1299, you'd be a fool not to consider it. Or else, you would be so concerned with impressing people you don't know, and creating your 'image' as to spend your money foolishly. I think MV falls into this category. It's a beautiful bike, but it's really a lot of nothing these days, and you can pick up used ones for peanuts.

So Ducati's are very nice, but nothing that can't be 95% matched for half the price. Italian cachet is a powerful thing, but Technology marches forward, and I like to think smart buyers want performance more than fancy styling.
Do you really think that a person who wants a Ferrari, and can afford it, will look at a Camaro and say "Yeah, that's good enough, I'll save some money."?

It's a completely different market. One that American manufacturers don't understand. They try, but just slightly miss the mark. And that's the fear of a truly American designed and built sport bike. The guys at Harley and Polaris just don't completely understand the market, so anything they build will be close, but not quite.

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Jun 29th 2017, 11:35 AM   #51
 
  Apr 2016
  WA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocB
Their prime skill set seems to be lifestyle marketing and that would allow them to work in a demographic they are well experienced with. Harley owners, please don't take this as an insult. I think HDs branding and marketing skills are unparalleled.
So that should fit the Ducati brand perfectly.
Jun 29th 2017, 04:49 PM   #52
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Do you really think that a person who wants a Ferrari, and can afford it, will look at a Camaro and say "Yeah, that's good enough, I'll save some money."?

It's a completely different market. One that American manufacturers don't understand. They try, but just slightly miss the mark. And that's the fear of a truly American designed and built sport bike. The guys at Harley and Polaris just don't completely understand the market, so anything they build will be close, but not quite.

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A Camaro isn't competing with a Ferrari. A Hennessey Venom GT is though, and I'd take the Venom, you can have the Ferrari and gaze at my dust trail.


Edited by Ralgha on Jun 29th 2017 at 04:52 PM
Jun 29th 2017, 06:28 PM   #53
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Yes, but last year all other manufacturers had a much greater decline, enough so that Harley's overall market share increased. Which means they lost more in one year than Harley lost in several. So again, make sure you look at the ALL the news, not just the pieces you like. Otherwise you are no better than a lot of the MSM.
Or maybe people switched to 300cc bikes. There are lies, big lies, and then there are statistics.
Jun 29th 2017, 06:29 PM   #54
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
If you think that HD's board of directors don't know how to run a company, even if it's not a carbon copy of their own, you are mistaken.
It depends - is it the same board that managed MV Agusta?
Jun 29th 2017, 06:41 PM   #55
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Do you really think that a person who wants a Ferrari, and can afford it, will look at a Camaro and say "Yeah, that's good enough, I'll save some money."?

It's a completely different market. One that American manufacturers don't understand. They try, but just slightly miss the mark. And that's the fear of a truly American designed and built sport bike. The guys at Harley and Polaris just don't completely understand the market, so anything they build will be close, but not quite.
Anecdote: from work, I know a guy, a Brit, connected to royals, and very rich. He just sold his Ferrari and bought a new Ford Shelby (he has one car garage in his London townhome). When I asked why, he said it's just more fun to drive.

Camaro may be too crude for the refined buyers of Ferraris and Porsches, but Ford may just be quite right.

So if Harley would make an unmistakably American bike, which was fast, and fun to ride, they may have had a shot.
Jun 29th 2017, 08:14 PM   #56
 DocB's Avatar
 
  Feb 2016
  Poulsbo, WA

  Aprilia RSV Mille, CB77, CB750K, CB750F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryanthegreat1
So that should fit the Ducati brand perfectly.
Yes, lifestyle marketing absolutely. But to what market? There may be a reason there is no Starbucks in Sturgis.
Jun 29th 2017, 09:03 PM   #57
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralgha
A Camaro isn't competing with a Ferrari. A Hennessey Venom GT is though, and I'd take the Venom, you can have the Ferrari and gaze at my dust trail.
Only problem with your comparison is that the Venom is a modified Lotus, not a "truly American" sports car. Also, Hennessey is a vehicle modifier/customizer, not an outright manufacturer. We're talking major American automobile company here, not carriage house type of builders.
Jun 29th 2017, 09:04 PM   #58
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
It depends - is it the same board that managed MV Agusta?
Actually, HD's board of directors didn't do the management of MV, it was all done in house. MV remained it's own company, just owned by HD.
Jun 29th 2017, 09:19 PM   #59
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Or maybe people switched to 300cc bikes. There are lies, big lies, and then there are statistics.
The reality is that the entire motorcycle market in the US shrunk in 2016, by 2.1% overall. The sad thing is that internationally the market surged, with the UK alone showing and 11% increase.

So, again, with Harley's market share in the US increasing in 2016, even with a decline in sales, that shows that 2016 hurt the other manufacturer's more. You can't seem to get past the fact that the majority of American riders prefer a brand that you dislike so much.
Jun 29th 2017, 10:52 PM   #60
 ShootPDX's Avatar
 
  May 2016
  Happy Valley area (Clackamas)

  SV650S Silver, HD Sportster
If Harley were to successfully complete the Ducati acquisition they would have a 100% marketshare in motorcycles which fry your balls. No other manufacturer can possibly compete in that space.
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