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Jan 9th 2019, 11:54 AM   #46
DGA
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  Jan 2016
  PDX

  An Ape and a Husky
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Both of those can be easily solved with nuclear energy.
Nuclear power is extremely expensive, cumbersome, and with an added expense of forever taking care of the spent fuel on site, not that palatable.

Look at what happened to your closest one; Trojan. The cooling tower, turbines, and rest of the major equipment might not be there any more, but one thing still remains, spent fuel at the bottom of that pool of water.
Jan 9th 2019, 11:56 AM   #47
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpShatner7
Define easily. Better yet, let's let the MIT Technology Review do it.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5...nuclear-power/

It's not a no-brainer or a slam dunk. Without government subsidy which, like much of the oil industry and frankly much of our military spending, is all about building the supply chains to support the ability to express global military power, it's at best part of a potential mix of solutions, and by no means the most cost effective one.
Yeah natural gas is the most cost-effective but we don't want that. What this review doesn't capture is how big is the part of the construction cost due to sunk investment due to protracted litigation from environmentalists.

If we protected the nuclear plants from lawsuits and applied carbon tax on fossil fuels, nuclear energy would end up the cheapest by far.

The problem is that the first part is on conservative agenda and the second part is on liberal agenda, and both sides would rather score political points
against each other than come up with an unified solution.
Jan 9th 2019, 11:57 AM   #48
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
Nuclear power is extremely expensive, cumbersome, and with an added expense of forever taking care of the spent fuel on site, not that palatable.

Look at what happened to your closest one; Trojan. The cooling tower, turbines, and rest of the major equipment might not be there any more, but one thing still remains, spent fuel at the bottom of that pool of water.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...breeder-react/
Jan 9th 2019, 12:07 PM   #49
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
Very far from it. Drive to eastern Oregon and Washington to see the current status - you can't call it future anymore since it's been around for over a decade - in work and expanding. This is the scene you'll see all over the country.
If you are talking about wind turbines, turn out their lifespan is shorter than the time it takes them to recoup the costs. It's as much of environmental self-imposed disaster as the ethanol fuel.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...ays-study.html
Jan 9th 2019, 12:11 PM   #50
DGA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Again, the highest cost and issue with Breeder reactors is the same one brought up with the three older types. As the article points out:

"Creating extra fuel in nuclear reactors, however, is not without its concerns: One is that the plutonium produced can be removed and used in nuclear weapons. Another is that, to extract the plutonium, the fuel must be reprocessed, creating radioactive waste and potentially high radiation exposures. For these reasons, in the U.S., President Carter halted such spent fuel reprocessing, making the use of breeder reactors problematic."
Jan 9th 2019, 12:18 PM   #51
DGA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
If you are talking about wind turbines, turn out their lifespan is shorter than the time it takes them to recoup the costs. It's as much of environmental self-imposed disaster as the ethanol fuel.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...ays-study.html
I'd be curious to see where you are getting the information from; it's not that article. It only speaks of a shorter lifetime.

Do you think a nuclear power plant is maintenance free? Maybe a natural gas one, or maybe coal? It takes a battalion of people and numerous millions of dollars to keep one running per year.
Jan 9th 2019, 12:25 PM   #52
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
If we protected the nuclear plants from lawsuits and applied carbon tax on fossil fuels, nuclear energy would end up the cheapest by far.
Show the math please? Because right now this is almost in the "1000s of new nuclear plants every year" territory of substantiation, and that one's a solid four orders of magnitude off the most pessimistic estimates.
Jan 9th 2019, 12:50 PM   #53
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
I would buy an electric bike immediatley if they were more affordable. And I think they will be very popular. Look at how electric bicycles are taking over the bike paths and commuter routes. I commute by bicycle and almost half the bikes I see are electric now.

Edited by Transported on Jan 9th 2019 at 12:53 PM
Jan 9th 2019, 12:58 PM   #54
DGA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
I would buy an electric bike immediatley if they were more affordable. And I think they will be very popular. Look at how electric bicycles are taking over the bike paths and commuter routes. I commute by bicycle and almost half the bikes I see are electric now.
Cars were expensive and rare at one point too. Look where we are now. Affordable electrical/battery powered transportation for the masses is not if, it's when.
Jan 9th 2019, 01:07 PM   #55
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
If you are talking about wind turbines, turn out their lifespan is shorter than the time it takes them to recoup the costs. It's as much of environmental self-imposed disaster as the ethanol fuel.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...ays-study.html
if you're talking about nuke reactors..just look at the number of times per year they have to completely shut down for maintenance...how many times a year did Trojan shut down and why isn't operating now...because it's a piece of crap..always has been always will be...can you say Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster? there is nothing as environmentally disatrous as a nuke plant...D'oh...
Jan 9th 2019, 01:08 PM   #56
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
I'd be curious to see where you are getting the information from; it's not that article. It only speaks of a shorter lifetime.
It's right there in the article:

“Bluntly, wind turbines onshore and offshore still cost too much and wear out far too quickly to offer the developing world a realistic alternative to coal.”

There are more articles to that effect if you want me to google them for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
Do you think a nuclear power plant is maintenance free? Maybe a natural gas one, or maybe coal? It takes a battalion of people and numerous millions of dollars to keep one running per year.
We've already established that fossil fuels must be replaced, the question is with what?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-replacement-/
the U.S. fleet of nuclear power plants will likely run for another 50 or even 70 years before it is retired -- long past the 40-year life span planned decades ago -- according to industry executives, regulators and scientists.
Jan 9th 2019, 01:22 PM   #57
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpShatner7
Show the math please? Because right now this is almost in the "1000s of new nuclear plants every year" territory of substantiation, and that one's a solid four orders of magnitude off the most pessimistic estimates.
here's a good primer:

COSTS OF NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS — WHAT WENT WRONG?

And a very good specific drill-down on the experience in South Korea:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01421516300106

More pop-sci version:

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/111329...s-france-korea

And MIT report

http://energy.mit.edu/wp-content/upl...ined-World.pdf
Jan 9th 2019, 01:24 PM   #58
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
If you are talking about wind turbines, turn out their lifespan is shorter than the time it takes them to recoup the costs. It's as much of environmental self-imposed disaster as the ethanol fuel.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...ays-study.html
I just read that article...nowhere does it actually name the study it refers to...you know what you call that? I tried to google this study..el zippo..it's only mentioned in ONE place..the Telegraph..and without references...sigh...so easy to believe though..so factual...loads and loads of facts...
cmon man...what about all of the times Trojan SHUT DOWN for months on end...did it ever run for a continual year? nope...how much electricity did it produce at what cost? like I asked before..is it running now and why not?
nuke reactors are better now then they were before? uhh wind turbines won't get better?
hollow arugments at best...
you like news articles? https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-after-tsunami

Edited by chadams66 on Jan 9th 2019 at 01:34 PM
Jan 9th 2019, 01:25 PM   #59
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadams66
if you're talking about nuke reactors..just look at the number of times per year they have to completely shut down for maintenance...how many times a year did Trojan shut down and why isn't operating now...because it's a piece of crap..always has been always will be...can you say Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster? there is nothing as environmentally disatrous as a nuke plant...D'oh...
Yet nuclear plants built decades ago are still operating, while wind turbines are falling apart or producing half of their nominal output. In general, it's unrealistic to hope that big chunks of metal with a lot of moving parts will harvest enough energy from something so ephemeral as wind or waves. Any machine with moving parts needs high energy density at the source to recoup the costs.

Of all the alternative sources, only photovoltaics are scalable enough - because they don't have moving parts.
Jan 9th 2019, 01:34 PM   #60
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
Again, the highest cost and issue with Breeder reactors is the same one brought up with the three older types. As the article points out:

"Creating extra fuel in nuclear reactors, however, is not without its concerns: One is that the plutonium produced can be removed and used in nuclear weapons. Another is that, to extract the plutonium, the fuel must be reprocessed, creating radioactive waste and potentially high radiation exposures. For these reasons, in the U.S., President Carter halted such spent fuel reprocessing, making the use of breeder reactors problematic."
President Carter was, famously, an idiot. And, the most promising breeding cycle is based on thorium and cannot be weaponized:

https://web.archive.org/web/20121028...en-system.html
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