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May 2nd 2019, 01:02 PM   #76
 
  Apr 2019
  McMinnville, OR

  2004 Suzuki SV650
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
I don't like loud motorcycles? Not in evidence in any of my writing. Perhaps you should read more carefully and not disparage the opinions of others while yours are unfounded and rather incomplete.

What I don't like are people who repeat tired cliche's as if they're some kind of mantra, a method, a means of doing it correctly. Loud pipes saves lives is a falsehood. That many here keep repeating it does not render it true.

Hundreds of traffic and transportation studies have been done over the decades. Find me ONE that concludes that louder is better, for ANY passenger vehicle type, with regards to collision avoidance. ONE. That's all I ask.

I'll justify my opinion this way:

40 years experience, decades of professional training, for road and track, for every kind of vehicle you can imagine.

I care. About 99 percent of the moto accidents I've seen could have been avoided if the rider was just a bit better at it. Repeating a falsehood about riding and exhaust noise, to me, is an indication that the rider can get better at it. The smartest, most experienced, most skilled and most professional riders I know all say what I'm saying: Loud pipes have nothing to do with safety.

And you're wrong. Here's a primer to the concept, a rudimentary and illustrative example of what I'm talking about regarding human's visual perceptions:

https://backyardbrains.com/experiments/eye
So what? Everyone can only write something that appeases your ideals. Who are you? Even if you were God almighty I wouldn't write something just to appease you because God doesn't work that way. He gave us ALL free will and free choice. But I take it you're above God somehow?

On another note I find the following to be of interest:

I’ll tell you what. I’ll tone down my exhaust note and ride a quieter motorcycle if you get your head out of your posterior, drive your car in a responsible manner, and stop looking at motorcyclists as if they’re dispensable.

https://www.straight.com/life/loud-p...-riders-safety


In conclusion, although I am not an advocate for loud pipes, and even though I disagree with the use of the most obnoxious ones, and even though there is no hard evidence in support of their use as a safety catalyst, and even though the loudest pipes do damage to the overall public perception of motorcycling, I respect that there have been “some” quantity of riders (however large or small), who are still riding, purportedly as a result of loud pipes. Which has caused me to re-evaluate their application.

Do Loud Motorcycle Exhaust Pipes Save Lives? | MotorcycleIntelligence.com
May 2nd 2019, 01:50 PM   #77
 PeteN95's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Muklilteo, WA

  Suzuki DL1000, Honda XR650R, KTM 250 XC-W
I would argue that overly loud pipes do a lot more toward angering the general public than adding to rider safety, although there may be some of each. I have aftermarket pipes on my bike, but I would not call them loud. If you really want to maximize the "safety" factor, you should direct the outlet of your loud exhaust forward, not back, so it is more likely to be heard by those you are approaching.
May 2nd 2019, 03:05 PM   #78
 
  Apr 2019
  McMinnville, OR

  2004 Suzuki SV650
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN95
I would argue that overly loud pipes do a lot more toward angering the general public than adding to rider safety, although there may be some of each. I have aftermarket pipes on my bike, but I would not call them loud. If you really want to maximize the "safety" factor, you should direct the outlet of your loud exhaust forward, not back, so it is more likely to be heard by those you are approaching.
I think the take away here is simple: Loud pipes save lives
May 2nd 2019, 09:00 PM   #79
 Lena's Avatar
Forum Admin
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  Monsters
Oh brother, it appears this is a touchy topic ...

Aside from the slogan, we seem to have a variety of opinions, I was expecting a good discussion but w/o it getting personal ...

I was also expecting some opinions based on experience from riders of e-bikes, did we get any? Did I miss them?

My only experience that I mentioned already was with an electric car and and it occurred at very slow speed on a neighborhood street where two people were walking in the middle and talking and they got startled because they didn't hear my car. I am guessing the same would happen with an electric bike but I wanted to hear if others experienced something like this. This situation is very different from what you are all discussing which seems to be a freeway/ busy surface street where you want to be noticed by other vehicles. We are concerned with our safety but my example happens to be the opposite.

My bike is somewhat loud, I suppose like DGA's Tuono and while I have ridden many other bikes, I don't have a comparison of riding an e-bike.
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May 3rd 2019, 09:11 AM   #80
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Here's the problem with this whole thing. If a cager doesn't pull into you because they either saw you or heard you, you won't have a clue it ever happened. A non-incident is a non-incident. So can we accurately say that "loud pipes save lives" or they don't? Not unless we can track down honest drivers who say that they heard a bike and didn't make an action that could have resulted in an accident. For that one time that you noticed someone almost drive into your loud, or bright, motorcycle, there could be dozens of times you didn't.
Rusty Nail, chadams66 and Akdawg like this.
May 3rd 2019, 11:28 AM   #81
DGA
 DGA's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  PDX

  An Ape and a Husky
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Here's the problem with this whole thing. If a cager doesn't pull into you because they either saw you or heard you, you won't have a clue it ever happened. A non-incident is a non-incident. So can we accurately say that "loud pipes save lives" or they don't? Not unless we can track down honest drivers who say that they heard a bike and didn't make an action that could have resulted in an accident. For that one time that you noticed someone almost drive into your loud, or bright, motorcycle, there could be dozens of times you didn't.
I'd go on a limb and say that vast majority of motorcyclists notice what traffic is doing around them a lot more so than most people driving in a car, loud pipe or not.
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May 3rd 2019, 01:48 PM   #82
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGA
I'd go on a limb and say that vast majority of motorcyclists notice what traffic is doing around them a lot more so than most people driving in a car, loud pipe or not.
Yes, but I'm talking about those times where the other vehicle makes zero movement at all towards the bike because the driver heard, or saw, them. There is nothing for the rider to "notice" because nothing actually happened. We cannot quantify how many instances of "non-noticeable" behavior happen because a driver took notice of us due to sound or sight. Therefore we cannot definitively say that loud pipes have not had an impact in those "non-incidents". Here's an example, you are riding by a driveway, and there is a car waiting to pull out, the driver thinks about it but hears your bike and doesn't move. Do you know for certain that they saw you, or they heard you? Do you pull over and ask them? They never move, you ride past, and you never have that answer. Heck, do you even ask yourself that question? Probably not, because nothing actually happened. Now, think about how many times that can happen during a ride and you get my point.
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May 5th 2019, 08:20 AM   #83
 TimberMoto's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Salem, Oregon

  Supermoto Dreaming...
You don't need loud pipes.

You just need a bike like Chuck's...
Attached Thumbnails
E-Moto - The Inherent Danger-chuckdf.jpg  
Parilla125 and 307T like this.
Jun 13th 2019, 12:34 PM   #84
 
  Jun 2019
  Tacoma

  Yamaha xs650
Interesting thread. I just thought I'd throw this in here. About three weeks ago I was driving on the freeway from Tacoma, Washington to Olympia and I was beginning to move to the left lane when I heard a Harley which caused me to suddenly abandon the lane change. He slowly passed me on the left as I chastised myself for not looking more carefully and almost hitting a fellow motorcyclist.
VeritasImageryNW likes this.
Jun 13th 2019, 12:53 PM   #85
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotMissile
God doesn't work that way. He gave us ALL free will and free choice.[/url]
who? what? which one?

Edited by chadams66 on Jun 13th 2019 at 12:55 PM
Jun 13th 2019, 05:12 PM   #86
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2013 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 Harlequin
i drive an electric car (not a hybrid). it is pretty frigging quiet. people walk in front of me regularly in parking lots but on the highway the silence don't matter at all at all, far as I've seen, since most of the noise is whooshing stuff from air/tires. so maybe at slow speeds, in parking lots, in town between lights, yeah, noise helps. but on the road at anything over about 25, nope. IMO.
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Jun 19th 2019, 05:42 PM   #87
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotMissile
So what? Everyone can only write something that appeases your ideals. Who are you? Even if you were God almighty I wouldn't write something just to appease you because God doesn't work that way. He gave us ALL free will and free choice. But I take it you're above God somehow?

On another note I find the following to be of interest:

I’ll tell you what. I’ll tone down my exhaust note and ride a quieter motorcycle if you get your head out of your posterior, drive your car in a responsible manner, and stop looking at motorcyclists as if they’re dispensable.

https://www.straight.com/life/loud-p...-riders-safety


In conclusion, although I am not an advocate for loud pipes, and even though I disagree with the use of the most obnoxious ones, and even though there is no hard evidence in support of their use as a safety catalyst, and even though the loudest pipes do damage to the overall public perception of motorcycling, I respect that there have been “some” quantity of riders (however large or small), who are still riding, purportedly as a result of loud pipes. Which has caused me to re-evaluate their application.

Do Loud Motorcycle Exhaust Pipes Save Lives? | MotorcycleIntelligence.com
Yes, I'm above God. I'm above anything that doesn't exist.

Do loud pipes help, sometimes? Perhaps.

My primary point is akin to: "My ballistic armor saved me after being stabbed by that drug dealer."

Ok, not debating the fact. But I would offer that it's safer yet to leave the body armor at home and NOT hang out with drug dealers.

IF you, anybody feels that a loud pipe saved them . . . did you then ask yourself what you can do to prevent such a 'close call?'

"close call" I hear this term frequently, from other riders. Riders who say things like "I saw a texting tailgater and had a close call."

Thing is: I NEVER have close calls. I don't define anything related to riding that way.
My riding, my existence on the street does not require the use or even a definition of that term.

Mindset. We ARE the words we use. And those who use terms like 'close call' and 'loud pipes . . . ' should not be surprised to find their experiences follow the use of those terms. Those terms, within their vocabulary, predict, almost dictate that "close calls," that "loud pipes save lives" enter into their riding.

These two terms, like many other terms that are self-defeating, become barriers to a world where those terms need not exist.

What is a 'close call,' except an admission that you could have been a better rider in that instance?
"Loud pipes saved my life" is an admission that you let a problem (that you should have seen coming) get WAY too close to you.
Do riders who use these terms define it that way?

Your quoted articles: Just more use of language that defeats, prevents self-improvement, applies blame unto others when it exists in ourselves.

I don't intend to go off the existential deep-end here.
To all: If you want to be a better rider, then first stop applying terms to yourself that define poor riding.

Edited by FireDave on Jun 19th 2019 at 06:21 PM
Jun 19th 2019, 10:52 PM   #88
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Thing is: I NEVER have close calls. I don't define anything related to riding that way.
My riding, my existence on the street does not require the use or even a definition of that term.
Famous last words. Also, see "survivor bias".
Jun 22nd 2019, 08:10 PM   #89
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Famous last words. Also, see "survivor bias".
You're referring to the "Normalization of Deviancy," the psychological/behavioral activity that led to, among other things, the Challenger catastrophe.

If you want to ignore my words, then ignore them. WTF does your reply even mean?

No, it's not survivor bias. It's recognizing and reacting to the various things that occur in front of me, and learning from them. I've had many teachable moments, and learned that the words I use to define my riding are one of the many important parts of my attitude and mindset when I put my helmet on.

Everybody has seen Rossi do it, pull his leather out of his crack as he exits pit lane. Why does he do this? It has nothing to do with his leathers. It's his totem, his method of donning his game face, his reminder to himself that it's ON. Our capricious and flawed brains can convince us we're no good, or that we're capable, preceptive, and galldarnit, people like me;-)

Seriously. Develop a vocabulary for riding well. Leave the inhibiting/defeating words, the actions that inevitably follow those words, behind.

These things are important.

Riding well is an athletic event. An activity that requires spatial awareness, quickness, perception and prediction. Not too far from an NFL running-back, a point guard, a rock climber. Who dons their helmet with such a game face?

Edited by FireDave on Jun 22nd 2019 at 08:33 PM
Jun 23rd 2019, 09:15 AM   #90
 NoirCat's Avatar
 
  Jan 2018
  Spanaway, WA

  2014 Honda CB1100, 2011 Triumph Street Triple
I've had loud pipes save me from people merging into my lane, but there are times when I assume they're paying attention in the slightest, and even after a couple of revs to let them know I'm there, they still keep merging like a brain-dead zombie...

Honestly, best strategy I have is making sure to leave enough space in front of me to occupy in case the dumbass next to me merges and I need to surge ahead. That said, in Seattle traffic, that isn't always the easiest to maintain...
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