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Apr 29th 2019, 05:56 PM   #31
 Bald Guy's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Kennewick

  Versys 1000 SE LT+, Ural Patrol and a shit load of BN125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
I find myself really balking at the idea of registration and insurance.

I know it's an in-between vehicle, but The Man already gets enough of a piece of us.

Yet I am dead certain it is going to be mandatory any second now to have both, everywhere.

Here's a fun thought: OK, so I can foresee any "powered" vehicle requiring registration. Here's a hypothetical: dude is a veteran, maybe he got injured, and his prosthetic legs are cutting edge, robotic limbs with electric motors and he is way stronger than any normal dude. It's not THAT far out there. OK, so this dude is now riding a regular bicycle, on the street. Is it "powered"?
Currently the RCW is outdated. I know, shocked. The current RCW 46.04.330 describes an exemption from the definition of a motorcycle as follows:

"Motorcycle" excludes a farm tractor, a power wheelchair, an electric personal assistive mobility device, a motorized foot scooter, an electric-assisted bicycle, and a moped.

Electric assisted bicycles are not required to be registered, nor are you required to be endorsed to operate them.

The picture is definitely not an electric assisted bicycle, so yes (in my opinion, which counts for shit!) you need registration and insurance. Whether or not you would need an endorsement would be up for debate. Current RCW only uses engine cc size, seating and controls to determine the necessity of an endorsement, not power output. But SHHHHH! don't tell our legislators. They'll find a way to fuck that up to!
Apr 29th 2019, 06:22 PM   #32
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Guy
Currently the RCW is outdated. I know, shocked. The current RCW 46.04.330 describes an exemption from the definition of a motorcycle as follows:

"Motorcycle" excludes a farm tractor, a power wheelchair, an electric personal assistive mobility device, a motorized foot scooter, an electric-assisted bicycle, and a moped.

Electric assisted bicycles are not required to be registered, nor are you required to be endorsed to operate them.

The picture is definitely not an electric assisted bicycle, so yes (in my opinion, which counts for shit!) you need registration and insurance. Whether or not you would need an endorsement would be up for debate. Current RCW only uses engine cc size, seating and controls to determine the necessity of an endorsement, not power output. But SHHHHH! don't tell our legislators. They'll find a way to fuck that up to!
The regulatory issues regarding e-bikes are WAY behind the reality, and I do hope they catch up soon.

Not because I want anyone to pay to register, but because 30-mph e-bikes, 20 mph-on-an-uphill e-mtn-bikes are beginning to be a heavy presence on otherwise calm paths and trails.

Maybe I'm too set in my ways, old and cranky, but MOTOR plus CYCLE equals MotorCycle. My hope is those motorcycles stay off the trails where they're not allowed.
Apr 29th 2019, 08:23 PM   #33
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Maybe we need to reappraise our enthusiasm for the sound of an internal combustion engine and come to appreciate the whisper of an electric motor. Consider that every brap you hear is another several quarts of greenhouse gasses that will remain in our atmosphere for hundreds of years fucking our present and future in our short, brutal lives.
Apr 29th 2019, 09:29 PM   #34
 
  Apr 2019
  McMinnville, OR

  2004 Suzuki SV650
Quote:
Originally Posted by craiger
Dare I step into the lion's den on this one? If and when your number is up, it's up. Sometimes the stars and planets align and excellent, experienced riders die. It happens and will continue to happen. To argue who knows more or has more experience seems to me a bit counter-productive. If you ride, and I will go out on a limb and say that by "ride", I mean regularly. Say 5 to 10 thousand miles per year. So if one falls in to that category, they have had experiences that no one else has had. Sure, some are similar, but each incident is unique in its own way. It's easy to exaggerate one's experience level because we're basically all anonymous here. I'm not saying the two combatants are fibbin it up, I'm saying that not everyone has all the answers all the time.

But can we agree that if we all ride and experience traffic oddities on a regular basis, do we not all have something in common? That common thread is that we choose to ride. In good weather and bad, mentally there and not, in traffic and open country roads. It's a choice. So arguing amongst ourselves only hurts us. I am a firm believer in listening and learning. Use one's experiences to help yourself and others. No one is always right, just as no one is always wrong. It's all a matter of perspective. And survival. I want to be an old rider, and the only way to become an old rider is to survive riding, and all the distractions and hazards that accompany it. So I listen and not pass judgement. Your experiences differ from mine and vice versa. Your horror stories of close calls and near misses do not fall on deaf ears.

Cagers do not stick up for each other, on the contrary, the hate each other. Riders, on the other hand (seems to me, anyway), have a strange sort of camaraderie, and I for one, am thankful for it. I find myself riding solo 99% of the time, for various reasons. Sometimes just because it's convenient, sometimes because I think I'm a bit of a social misfit, but to see others squabble over noisy pipes is counter-productive. We gotta learn to stick together. Cagers hate us, are envious, have a sense of entitlement, and are poorly skilled at their specific means of transport. That's not our problem. Our problem is to avoid the idiocy and survive to ride another day. We're all fathers and sons, mothers and daughters. It's not worth it lose your life because of some prideful act. Inform and educate cagers whenever confronted by drivers who are uneducated about riders and the hazards they face. Someone you work with, a family member, a stranger in a bar..someone who you overhear berating 2 wheeled travelers (including bicyclists), it's not cool or civil to hate someone that you know nothing about just because they choose to get around differently than you. It's 2019 people, we need to be more accepting and less discriminating. Just my 2 cents....carry on.

I beg to differ, slightly; I don't hate cagers because I understand them. I think it's kind of funny how irritated they get at riders though, and yeah they do hate us, but I think that's largely because they don't understand us. We are a foreign object that intimidates them somewhat..all of a sudden there we are seemingly out of nowhere unexpected. Now if they get mad because we are faster and more nimble then they have personal issues to deal with and I laugh at them essentially.

I agree thought that no one is right here. Riding as if you are invisible is key to be sure, but loud pipes aren't a bad thing either and only serve to help the invisible theory not that it should ever be relied upon. Like Jay mentioned, a tool in the tool case. Furthermore isn't the sweet sound a part of the experience all together? Call me crazy but I think so.
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Apr 29th 2019, 10:04 PM   #35
 307T's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Washington County

  H-D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
.../snip/...[My]enthusiasm for the sound of an internal combustion engine
Yes, yes I do.
dragracer1951 likes this.
Apr 30th 2019, 12:32 AM   #36
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
The regulatory issues regarding e-bikes are WAY behind the reality, and I do hope they catch up soon.

Not because I want anyone to pay to register, but because 30-mph e-bikes, 20 mph-on-an-uphill e-mtn-bikes are beginning to be a heavy presence on otherwise calm paths and trails.

Maybe I'm too set in my ways, old and cranky, but MOTOR plus CYCLE equals MotorCycle. My hope is those motorcycles stay off the trails where they're not allowed.
Just look at them as 2-wheeled wheelchairs for the disabled outdoor enthusiasts, maybe that will calm you down. I don't think outlawing electric bicycles on trails will stand a court challenge. Limiting their power and speed, sure. But then someone will have to start policing it.
Apr 30th 2019, 07:56 AM   #37
DGA
 DGA's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  PDX

  An Ape and a Husky
I could not care any less for what it sounds like, but am here for the pure unadulterated power. If the electric bike accelerates anything like a bigger Tesla P85, etc - I'm not sure why it would not - these things will be amazing to ride.
Apr 30th 2019, 08:56 AM   #38
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Just look at them as 2-wheeled wheelchairs for the disabled outdoor enthusiasts, maybe that will calm you down. I don't think outlawing electric bicycles on trails will stand a court challenge. Limiting their power and speed, sure. But then someone will have to start policing it.
Yes, Wheelchairs go about 5 mph. Very few human-powered bicyclists can reach 30 mph on flat level ground, unless they're in a race.

Of course it will stand a court challenge, if a law is passed that restricts. Does anyone question that motorcycles, horses, bicycles (of all types) are banned from specific trails?

A wide-open multi-use trail doesn't really exist anymore, nearly all trails are for specific use, (or a range of specific use)

Banning motorcycles from most trails is done. Now it's just a matter of definition. The regulatory environment is not yet caught up on definitions, licensing, restricted areas of use for most 2-wheeled electric.

e-Scooters, e-bikes, single wheel, Segways, and they're spreading fast. Our city sidewalks, urban bike paths, park trails . . . they need to be protected. The people using those trails aren't expecting and will suffer if 25 mph speed differentials are allowed. A 650Wh e-mtn-bike (enough of them) will tear up a trail just as a dirt bike.

It'll probably take a bad event or two before laws are adapted.

Seattle is getting there:

Speed limit and e-bike regulations coming to Burke-Gilman Trail ? My Ballard

WA State's first real step is too broad, too vague, and lacks any enforcement:

http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/bienni.../6434-S.SL.pdf

Edited by FireDave on Apr 30th 2019 at 09:12 AM
Apr 30th 2019, 09:22 AM   #39
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

Just read this whole thread. Good thing the sun is showing itself and everyone will be getting out to ride! Folks are getting cranky!
Apr 30th 2019, 10:01 AM   #40
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  NW Oregon

  R1200ST, CB350
The Inherent Danger is my new DJ name
FireDave likes this.
Apr 30th 2019, 02:24 PM   #41
 PeteN95's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Muklilteo, WA

  Suzuki DL1000, Honda XR650R, KTM 250 XC-W
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotMissile
I beg to differ, slightly; I don't hate cagers because I understand them. I think it's kind of funny how irritated they get at riders though, and yeah they do hate us, but I think that's largely because they don't understand us. ...(snip)....Riding as if you are invisible is key to be sure, but loud pipes aren't a bad thing either and only serve to help the invisible theory not that it should ever be relied upon. Like Jay mentioned, a tool in the tool case. Furthermore isn't the sweet sound a part of the experience all together? Call me crazy but I think so.
If you don't think people riding like A-holes and ridiculously loud pipes are part of the reason some people hate motorcyclists, I think you are wrong. I too enjoy a good sounding motor being wound out, but in an appropriate place, like a track. A mild cruiser motor with straight pipes does not fit this description.
VegasWolf and Ryanthegreat1 like this.
Apr 30th 2019, 02:29 PM   #42
 
  Apr 2016
  WA

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN95
If you don't think people riding like A-holes and ridiculously loud pipes are part of the reason some people hate motorcyclists, I think you are wrong. I too enjoy a good sounding motor being wound out, but in an appropriate place, like a track. A mild cruiser motor with straight pipes does not fit this description.
+1 time and place
Apr 30th 2019, 04:49 PM   #43
 Chrishil54's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Kirkland

  2009 V-Star 1100 Custom
Quote:
Originally Posted by craiger
Dare I step into the lion's den on this one? If and when your number is up, it's up. Sometimes the stars and planets align and excellent, experienced riders die. It happens and will continue to happen. To argue who knows more or has more experience seems to me a bit counter-productive. If you ride, and I will go out on a limb and say that by "ride", I mean regularly. Say 5 to 10 thousand miles per year. So if one falls in to that category, they have had experiences that no one else has had. Sure, some are similar, but each incident is unique in its own way. It's easy to exaggerate one's experience level because we're basically all anonymous here. I'm not saying the two combatants are fibbin it up, I'm saying that not everyone has all the answers all the time.

But can we agree that if we all ride and experience traffic oddities on a regular basis, do we not all have something in common? That common thread is that we choose to ride. In good weather and bad, mentally there and not, in traffic and open country roads. It's a choice. So arguing amongst ourselves only hurts us. I am a firm believer in listening and learning. Use one's experiences to help yourself and others. No one is always right, just as no one is always wrong. It's all a matter of perspective. And survival. I want to be an old rider, and the only way to become an old rider is to survive riding, and all the distractions and hazards that accompany it. So I listen and not pass judgement. Your experiences differ from mine and vice versa. Your horror stories of close calls and near misses do not fall on deaf ears.

Cagers do not stick up for each other, on the contrary, the hate each other. Riders, on the other hand (seems to me, anyway), have a strange sort of camaraderie, and I for one, am thankful for it. I find myself riding solo 99% of the time, for various reasons. Sometimes just because it's convenient, sometimes because I think I'm a bit of a social misfit, but to see others squabble over noisy pipes is counter-productive. We gotta learn to stick together. Cagers hate us, are envious, have a sense of entitlement, and are poorly skilled at their specific means of transport. That's not our problem. Our problem is to avoid the idiocy and survive to ride another day. We're all fathers and sons, mothers and daughters. It's not worth it lose your life because of some prideful act. Inform and educate cagers whenever confronted by drivers who are uneducated about riders and the hazards they face. Someone you work with, a family member, a stranger in a bar..someone who you overhear berating 2 wheeled travelers (including bicyclists), it's not cool or civil to hate someone that you know nothing about just because they choose to get around differently than you. It's 2019 people, we need to be more accepting and less discriminating. Just my 2 cents....carry on.
There are several reasons why cagers hate us, and some riders contribute to that. Group stunt riding down the road that blocks traffic, splitting/filtering lanes when it's not legal, passing on shoulders, etc. all contribute to that negative view of riding. Other things I suspect, we get HOV lane access when they don't, priority loading on ferries, not having kids fighting in the back seat, no spouse yelling at you...
Apr 30th 2019, 05:30 PM   #44
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2019 Nada
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpShatner7
The Inherent Danger is my new DJ name
Harvey's bro?

Maybe you can afford a Private Helicopter?

Apr 30th 2019, 07:27 PM   #45
 
  Apr 2019
  McMinnville, OR

  2004 Suzuki SV650
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN95
If you don't think people riding like A-holes and ridiculously loud pipes are part of the reason some people hate motorcyclists, I think you are wrong. I too enjoy a good sounding motor being wound out, but in an appropriate place, like a track. A mild cruiser motor with straight pipes does not fit this description.
Well now you're just putting words in me mouth bud. And my bad, I don't really mean loud pipes, noob mistake...I just mean a regular aftermarket exhaust so that you can get that great sound.
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