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Apr 27th 2019, 08:31 PM   #1
 Lena's Avatar
Forum Admin
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  Monsters
E-Moto - The Inherent Danger

I have always slightly dismissed the saying 'Loud pipes save lives' but now, after reading this from a respectable source and experiencing people startled by me driving by in an electric vehicle, am I to reconsider?

MOTO eMAG: E-Moto Industry Analyzed
Apr 27th 2019, 09:33 PM   #2
 JayFree's Avatar
 
  Apr 2019
  Swisshome

  Nunya
There have been times where my loud pipes have saved me from imminent danger, that much I can say with full confidence. Loud pipes are annoying. People tend to notice annoying things. I'm loud and annoying and you can't miss me
Apr 28th 2019, 07:12 AM   #3
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2013 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 Harlequin
i've been driving an electric car since 2012.

never _really_ had a problem with it being too quiet.

i am really considering an electric bicycle. maybe one of those larger ones that looks like a big mountain bike/small dirt bike.

have to keep it small enough to get away with walking it on the ferry though and riding it up the elevator at work to plug in at my desk.

anyone got one of those?
Apr 28th 2019, 07:29 AM   #4
 Texasl's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Northeast Olalla

  07 Guzzi
I think that the more accurate phrasing should be "loud pipes might save your ass when you have placed yourself in an unnecessary hazardous position." While we would love it if drivers put motorcycles on their priority scan list amongst the visual cacophony, in reality it is vitally incumbent upon the MOTORCYCLIST to be aware of where they are placing themselves so that they do not place themselves in critical situations as well as having good situational awareness to minimize their time spent in more hazardous positions.
PeteN95, mjn, Parilla125 and 3 others like this.
Apr 28th 2019, 07:33 AM   #5
 
  Apr 2016
  WA

I would love nothing more than a silent bike to go ripping around at night. If no one hears you did it really happen?
Apr 28th 2019, 07:50 AM   #6
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
There's no "inherent danger" from riding a (nearly) silent bike. No more than the latent risk of being on two wheels in traffic.

The danger comes from riders who rely on their bike's noise, as a substitute for understanding the dynamics of riding in traffic.

Old and good advice, seldom followed by too many of us, willfully ignored by some riders, such as the author of the linked article:

Ride like you're invisible.


The author mentions "invisible," but only as a complaint, not as a tactic. How long has he been riding?
This article is a perfect illustration, that experience and an apparently complete moto-resume' don't automatically translate to knowing jack-shit about riding.

IMO, The solution to riding any bike safely, e-moto or otherwise, is not with his V2V or LED or any other tech (ok, maybe ABS). It's between the ears.

Does a noisy bike protect you from being rear-ended at a stop-light by a distracted driver?
I filter to the front, often.

Does a noisy bike keep you from over-cooking a curve and riding into a tree?
Take it down a notch or two until you know what you're doing.

Does a noisy bike keep you sober?
Duh.

Does a noisy bike keep you from excessive speed?
Time and place.

Does a noisy bike keep you from extended riding in the blind-spots of cagers?
Does a noisy bike teach you to not be obscured by another vehicle as you enter an intersection?
Does a noisy bike instill discipline and restraint?
Does a noisy bike motivate you to be a life-long learner about riding?
Texasl, Parilla125 and Didley like this.
Apr 28th 2019, 08:22 AM   #7
 JayFree's Avatar
 
  Apr 2019
  Swisshome

  Nunya
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
There's no "inherent danger" from riding a (nearly) silent bike. No more than the latent risk of being on two wheels in traffic.

The danger comes from riders who rely on their bike's noise, as a substitute for understanding the dynamics of riding in traffic.

Old and good advice, seldom followed by too many of us, willfully ignored by some riders, such as the author of the linked article:

Ride like you're invisible.


The author mentions "invisible," but only as a complaint, not as a tactic. How long has he been riding?
This article is a perfect illustration, that experience and an apparently complete moto-resume' don't automatically translate to knowing jack-shit about riding.

IMO, The solution to riding any bike safely, e-moto or otherwise, is not with his V2V or LED or any other tech (ok, maybe ABS). It's between the ears.

Does a noisy bike protect you from being rear-ended at a stop-light by a distracted driver?
I filter to the front, often.

Does a noisy bike keep you from over-cooking a curve and riding into a tree?
Take it down a notch or two until you know what you're doing.

Does a noisy bike keep you sober?
Duh.

Does a noisy bike keep you from excessive speed?
Time and place.

Does a noisy bike keep you from extended riding in the blind-spots of cagers?
Does a noisy bike teach you to not be obscured by another vehicle as you enter an intersection?
Does a noisy bike instill discipline and restraint?
Does a noisy bike motivate you to be a life-long learner about riding?
Does a noisy bike make those jackwagons that wanna pull out without looking take a glance in your direction? Yes.

Does a noisy bike draw more attention to you when you're driving around in cities where people tend to not notice motorcyclists? Yes.

Does a noisy bike give you a way that's more attention grabbing than the usual tiny horn that comes on bikes to alert others to your presence when they're about to do something dumb? Yes.

Does a noisy bike have the ability to get a person buried in their text messaging while driving to look up? Yes.

Does a noisy bike annoy the crap out of people? Yes. Do annoyed people usually turn their attention away from what's annoying them? NO.

Are the questions in your post redundant? Yes.

Common sense, bud. "Ride like you're invisible" LOL worst advice I've ever heard. A better piece of advice would be "STAY ALERT, STAY ALIVE"
Apr 28th 2019, 08:52 AM   #8
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFree
Does a noisy bike make those jackwagons that wanna pull out without looking take a glance in your direction? Yes.

Does a noisy bike draw more attention to you when you're driving around in cities where people tend to not notice motorcyclists? Yes.

Does a noisy bike give you a way that's more attention grabbing than the usual tiny horn that comes on bikes to alert others to your presence when they're about to do something dumb? Yes.

Does a noisy bike have the ability to get a person buried in their text messaging while driving to look up? Yes.

Does a noisy bike annoy the crap out of people? Yes. Do annoyed people usually turn their attention away from what's annoying them? NO.

Are the questions in your post redundant? Yes.

Common sense, bud. "Ride like you're invisible" LOL worst advice I've ever heard. A better piece of advice would be "STAY ALERT, STAY ALIVE"
Worst advice you've ever heard? You should get out more.

Go ahead, keep on believing the justification for being annoying. Or get better at riding.

How long have you been riding? Please tell us.

"Ride as if you're invisible." Advice I've heard over and over again, from some of the best riders I know, from riders I respect more than any other. For you to respond as such, see my jack-shit comment.

"Jackwagons" who pull out if front of you are one of the least frequent causes of moto-wrecks. And the good riders see it coming, follow my aforementioned advice on staying visible and AREN'T surprised when cagers do something outside the lines.

I drive a very large, very loud, very noisy and obvious rig. All our warning devices don't change other driver's behaviors, much. You really think your after-market 2-bros annoyer does? What are you on? I'll take 2.

If you really believe your rhetorical answers are "yes," I advise you to spend a day rethinking your attitude and mindset before you ride again.
Apr 28th 2019, 09:23 AM   #9
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

If you're relying on your bike's noise to keep you alive, sell your bike.
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Apr 28th 2019, 09:44 AM   #10
 JayFree's Avatar
 
  Apr 2019
  Swisshome

  Nunya
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Worst advice you've ever heard? You should get out more.

Go ahead, keep on believing the justification for being annoying. Or get better at riding.

How long have you been riding? Please tell us.

"Ride as if you're invisible." Advice I've heard over and over again, from some of the best riders I know, from riders I respect more than any other. For you to respond as such, see my jack-shit comment.

"Jackwagons" who pull out if front of you are one of the least frequent causes of moto-wrecks. And the good riders see it coming, follow my aforementioned advice on staying visible and AREN'T surprised when cagers do something outside the lines.

I drive a very large, very loud, very noisy and obvious rig. All our warning devices don't change other driver's behaviors, much. You really think your after-market 2-bros annoyer does? What are you on? I'll take 2.

If you really believe your rhetorical answers are "yes," I advise you to spend a day rethinking your attitude and mindset before you ride again.
I've been riding since I was 13 and I'm now 37. I've put at least half a million miles on a bike in 5 different countries and almost every state.

""Jackwagons" who pull out if front of you are one of the least frequent causes of moto-wrecks." Even Team Oregon disagrees with you, it's basically common knowledge that the most danger is at intersections. Obviously icy/slick terrain is a hazard worth mentioning, but any good rider can traverse stuff like that most of the time without incident.

Do you disagree with "STAY ALERT, STAY ALIVE?" Obviously not, therefore we are in agreement there. But the "ride like you're invisible" is seriously flawed. It should be "ride like you're ultra-visible" and I'm pretty sure every experienced rider will agree with that statement. Why else do they push reflective materials and bright colored apparel so hard in training manuals and such? You'd have to be really thick to not get that.

And yes, my loud pipes saved me just a few days ago from an ijit who was tailgating while texting. I revved it up a few times and she looked up right before she was on top of me. I watched the fear come over her and saw her put her phone down and apologize with prayhands. That's just one recent example, I can give many more if necessary, but I think I've made my point.

Tell me how my "rhetorical yes answers" are wrong. I'd like to see you argue simple logic lol. Your experience driving a giant truck with lights and the like compares literally zero. People treat trucks differently and you know it. Don't even try to deny it. Trucks also treat people differently. You know that too. If you don't then that means you aren't experienced or knowledgeable enough to continue this conversation.

"Get better at riding"

What makes you think I'm not good at riding? I've got plenty of people to tell you how good I am. They'll happily vouch for me. One on this board even said "you'd make a great instructor" after I assisted him with some basics. I've raced semi-professionally on Bandimere, I've run canyons at speeds that would make you piss yourself. I've avoided almost every single obstacle on regular streets that has ever wandered into my path. Only once have I ever been forced into a wreck, and that was in Florida, and I'm sure any experienced rider here will agree, Florida drivers are the worst. Plus, that person did it to me on purpose and was convicted of attempted vehicular assault for that incident. Trust me when I say there was no way out of that.

I've been around the world. Don't tell me "you should get out more" when you know literally nothing about me. That's just rude and unintelligent. Don't make ASSumptions about people you don't know. Try to stick to the message, not attack the messenger. If you're offended by something I said then maybe you should reconsider your positions, or at least try to find out why it hurt you so much.
Apr 28th 2019, 09:48 AM   #11
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
I walk around either reading or listening to audio through earbuds. I look around where I am going and listen for danger. But I have recently had to adjust because of all the near silent bicycles, electric bikes, and scooters proliferating. You can detect them. But you have to turn up your audio and peripheral visual awareness sensors.

Unless a car is going less than 10 mph, I can hear their tire howl. An electric motorcycle may be quiet enough to take me by surprise. But they are few and far between.
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Apr 28th 2019, 09:49 AM   #12
 JayFree's Avatar
 
  Apr 2019
  Swisshome

  Nunya
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpShatner7
If you're relying on your bike's noise to keep you alive, sell your bike.
Who "relies on their bike's noise" to keep them alive? It is a tool, just like any other, and it has its place. Does a carpenter rely on a hammer, or is it just one of many tools they use to complete their duties?
PatriotMissile likes this.
Apr 28th 2019, 10:45 AM   #13
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
I've always thought "loud pipes saves lives" is a cop-out, a lazy rider's way of thinking, a trite and over-played excuse for 'look at me and my cool bike."

Good riders save their own lives. The bike has little to do with it.

Once in a while, a bike's noise get's someone's attention, when otherwise the cager's attention is elsewhere. But the good riders see it coming long before the cager hears the bike.

I apologize for the harshness. Good advice is where you find it, take what you can use and leave the rest.
But don't dismiss good advice as "the worst advice I've ever heard" . . . when it's clear that you don't even understand the premise of the discussion.
Rusty Nail likes this.
Apr 28th 2019, 10:50 AM   #14
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '08 BMW K12GT, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFree
I've been riding since I was 13 and I'm now 37. I've put at least half a million miles on a bike in 5 different countries and almost every state.

""Jackwagons" who pull out if front of you are one of the least frequent causes of moto-wrecks." Even Team Oregon disagrees with you, it's basically common knowledge that the most danger is at intersections. Obviously icy/slick terrain is a hazard worth mentioning, but any good rider can traverse stuff like that most of the time without incident.

Do you disagree with "STAY ALERT, STAY ALIVE?" Obviously not, therefore we are in agreement there. But the "ride like you're invisible" is seriously flawed. It should be "ride like you're ultra-visible" and I'm pretty sure every experienced rider will agree with that statement. Why else do they push reflective materials and bright colored apparel so hard in training manuals and such? You'd have to be really thick to not get that.

And yes, my loud pipes saved me just a few days ago from an ijit who was tailgating while texting. I revved it up a few times and she looked up right before she was on top of me. I watched the fear come over her and saw her put her phone down and apologize with prayhands. That's just one recent example, I can give many more if necessary, but I think I've made my point.

Tell me how my "rhetorical yes answers" are wrong. I'd like to see you argue simple logic lol. Your experience driving a giant truck with lights and the like compares literally zero. People treat trucks differently and you know it. Don't even try to deny it. Trucks also treat people differently. You know that too. If you don't then that means you aren't experienced or knowledgeable enough to continue this conversation.

"Get better at riding"

What makes you think I'm not good at riding? I've got plenty of people to tell you how good I am. They'll happily vouch for me. One on this board even said "you'd make a great instructor" after I assisted him with some basics. I've raced semi-professionally on Bandimere, I've run canyons at speeds that would make you piss yourself. I've avoided almost every single obstacle on regular streets that has ever wandered into my path. Only once have I ever been forced into a wreck, and that was in Florida, and I'm sure any experienced rider here will agree, Florida drivers are the worst. Plus, that person did it to me on purpose and was convicted of attempted vehicular assault for that incident. Trust me when I say there was no way out of that.

I've been around the world. Don't tell me "you should get out more" when you know literally nothing about me. That's just rude and unintelligent. Don't make ASSumptions about people you don't know. Try to stick to the message, not attack the messenger. If you're offended by something I said then maybe you should reconsider your positions, or at least try to find out why it hurt you so much.
You saw a texting tailgater? Why did you allow them to be close enough to you to even hear your bike? Please tell us again how good a rider you are, and I'll keep popping the balloon.

I'm not interested in your resume'. Please see my first post.
Apr 28th 2019, 11:26 AM   #15
 JayFree's Avatar
 
  Apr 2019
  Swisshome

  Nunya
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
You saw a texting tailgater? Why did you allow them to be close enough to you to even hear your bike? Please tell us again how good a rider you are, and I'll keep popping the balloon.

I'm not interested in your resume'. Please see my first post.
Wow. Just when I thought you might've actually got your head screwed on straight...then this.

You haven't popped shit. All you've done is show how you aren't able to think clearly enough to process even a single, simple scenario. Apparently you've never rode in traffic lol. "Why did you allow them to be close enough to you to even hear your bike" umm....I was in traffic and there was a line of cars in front of me. Do you think tailgating only happens on highways or something? Lol, why do you think I revved it to get her attention? I'll tell you, because she was about to pancake me.

Jeezuz man. I had hoped you might get over yourself after my last post...I was wrong. Take a hike. I've had about all I can stand from you, unless you're actually willing to carry on a conversation without descending into childish petulance.

Edited by JayFree on Apr 28th 2019 at 11:37 AM Reason: Incorrect phrasing
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