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Sep 25th 2019, 07:19 AM   #121
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
I'm speculating those bikes were...in an awfully tight formation.

My group rides barely park that close together, much less herd up in such proximity while in motion.

Teachable moment: Space=time=safety.
Yes.

10 motorcyclists at standard 2-second intervals, doing 50 mph (73.3fps), means that the 10th motorcycle would be about 20 seconds and well over a quarter-mile back when the first victim was hit by the offender.

Edited by MV Man on Sep 25th 2019 at 07:22 AM
Sep 25th 2019, 08:43 AM   #122
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
I didn’t do your math, but I think you mean 10 seconds and an 1/8th mile. Because a typical group ride would be riding staggered.
That would only be a one second following distance. You're still following the motorcycle ahead of you, even if it's normally offset within the same lane.

But I suspect the victims were in a MUCH tighter "formation", leaving them much less opportunity to avoid the offender.

Edited by MV Man on Sep 25th 2019 at 09:45 AM
Sep 25th 2019, 09:09 AM   #123
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

Blame the victim! Seems to be the standard these days.
Sep 25th 2019, 09:15 AM   #124
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Nobody's blaming the victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MV Man

Before I start, I want to make it clear that there is NOTHING that will mitigate the offender's responsibility for the death and injuries he inflicted upon all those innocent victims.

Edited by MV Man on Sep 25th 2019 at 09:27 AM
Sep 25th 2019, 09:25 AM   #125
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
Riding staggered would make it 5 riders at 2 seconds.
Riding staggered does not cut the number of motorcycles in half.

We're talking about 10 motorcyclists all in the same lane. They can stagger if they want, but they're still all in the same lane.

When riding staggered, the space within the lane beside each motorcyclist, belongs to that motorcyclist, not the one behind him.

Edited by MV Man on Sep 25th 2019 at 09:30 AM
Sep 25th 2019, 09:31 AM   #126
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by 307T
Criticism of riders that you don't know based solely on the types of bikes they ride is a bad example of stereotyping. I have met riders of all ages who ride all styles and brands of bikes and there are skilled rider's and squids among each and every group.
A fair point, but I read most of this thread as reasonable criticism of their riding, based on the details of the incident and the outcome. The type of bike is relevant because we've ALL seen herds of cruisers in tight formation, which is, IMO, much less frequently seen of other types of bikes outside of idiots like the Bombsquad.

Yes, it's stereotyping, not solely based on the type of bike, rather it's based (for most of us) on repeated observations of the behavior.
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Sep 25th 2019, 09:57 AM   #127
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
If ten motorcycles are riding staggered, you basically cut the size of the group in half. So that puts the last rider at half the distance to the front as opposed to riding single file which is what your math is based on.

If the group of ten was riding single file at 2 seconds apart, then yes that puts the last rider 20 seconds back. If the same group was riding staggered at 2 seconds apart, that puts rider 9 at 10 seconds from the front.

And then there’s Oregon,.... they teach 4 riders staggered at 2 seconds and then a 4 second gap between the next group.
It sounds like you're assuming that a 2-second following distance is 2 seconds behind the next motorcycle that's on the same side of the lane as you are, but that's dangerous thinking, as it ignores the motorcycle between you two- if he has to move over for ANY reason, it instantly cuts the gaps to LESS than one second in between each of three motorcycles, and a normal human reaction time to something they're not expecting, is almost one second.

Edited by MV Man on Sep 25th 2019 at 10:06 AM
Sep 25th 2019, 10:00 AM   #128
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

Quote:
Originally Posted by MV Man
Nobody's blaming the victims.
Well, let's take a look at that.
Their choice of bike style picked on. Check.
Their riding ability picked on because of the bike style. Check.
The 'probable' way they ride (pack style, too close) because of bike style picked on. Check.
There are a lot of posts that 'appear' to be going 'at' the riders when it was the 'tool' (driver causing it) that was the cause.
If he had not been on the road, drunk, loosing control of his vehicle, NONE of this would have happened. Period.
Sep 25th 2019, 10:45 AM   #129
 coastrider's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Oregon Coast

  2017 BMW R1200RT
Recent posts keep saying "10 motorcycles".
I understood the accident to involve "10 MOTORCYCLISTS".
Were there not some two-up riders?

Without accident investigation details seems like a lot of guessing and opinions as to how people were riding, what gear they had, if gear would have saved them, what training they had. Maybe all those details have been published in some follow up articles that I have not seen.

I do wear good gear and I try to keep a conservative following distance. But not yet experiencing a truck and trailer moving into my lane I won't say I would have had any better outcome than these riders. I'll stick with putting blame on the truck driver.

As that fellow moving from paradise to the rainy northwest says: "When riding staggered, the space within the lane beside each motorcyclist, belongs to that motorcyclist, not the one behind him.". Yes indeed, it is my &#%$@*^ lane, stay out. So follow me at a prudent distance. Don't calculate following distance based on the guy in front of me because at any moment I might just decide I like the other half of MY lane better than where I am and move over. :-)
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Edited by coastrider on Sep 25th 2019 at 10:46 AM Reason: typo
Sep 25th 2019, 12:57 PM   #130
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by coastrider
I'll stick with putting blame on the truck driver.

As that fellow moving from paradise to the rainy northwest says: "When riding staggered, the space within the lane beside each motorcyclist, belongs to that motorcyclist, not the one behind him.". Yes indeed, it is my &#%$@*^ lane, stay out. So follow me at a prudent distance. Don't calculate following distance based on the guy in front of me because at any moment I might just decide I like the other half of MY lane better than where I am and move over. :-)
Amen, brother...
Sep 25th 2019, 11:03 PM   #131
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parilla125
Well, let's take a look at that.
Their choice of bike style picked on. Check.
Their riding ability picked on because of the bike style. Check.
The 'probable' way they ride (pack style, too close) because of bike style picked on. Check.
Do you have a single molecule of evidence to offer, that contradicts our suspicions?

Quote:
If he had not been on the road, drunk, loosing control of his vehicle, NONE of this would have happened. Period.
So you are hanging all your hopes of survival, on every single motorist you encounter obeying every single law on the books?

I choose to take a more active role in my own survival, by stacking the deck in my favor. I hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. I assume that every motorist on the road is this offender (or worse), unless and until proven otherwise.

I only ride sober, licensed, and insured, wearing FULL safety gear, on an extremely competent motorcycle, using riding skills developed through a focused and very intentional investment of my time, effort, and financial resources, to an objectively quantifiable level of skill sufficient for others to assign the word "expert" to my road racing license.

Maybe that's why I have reached retirement age.
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Edited by MV Man on Sep 25th 2019 at 11:06 PM
Sep 26th 2019, 07:11 AM   #132
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

Aaaaand now go after the person that points out the 'blaming the victim'. Perfect.
Sep 26th 2019, 08:45 AM   #133
 MV Man's Avatar
 
  Sep 2019
  Portlandia, by way of Maui

  MV Agusta F3 800
Oh, stop it. You're not a victim here- the only victims were those 10 motorcyclists.
Sep 26th 2019, 12:10 PM   #134
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

Repeat above.
Oct 21st 2019, 11:45 PM   #135
 307T's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Washington County

  H-D
The 23 year-old driver of the truck has finally been indicted on 23 separate counts, the most serious of which were multiple negligent homicide counts. He has been held without bail since the crash. Arraignment is due on November 5th. If found guilty and if the sentencing is consecutive he could face 378 years. No word on trial date yet.
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