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Jun 30th 2019, 04:14 PM   #46
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasl
And statistically, how often does that happen?



If a rider does not detect problems until the bike right in front of him crashes I would venture that they have not done due diligence on visual lead.
A vehicle that suddenly crosses the center-line: I'm not sure there's much due diligence to be had there. Except to make sure that your fellow riders aren't so close to you that they compound the problem.
Jul 1st 2019, 06:55 AM   #47
 Akdawg's Avatar
 
  Dec 2018
  Goldendale WA

  Classic Sportsters, Triumph & BSA
ABS pro/con?....this needs a thread of its own. It'll be like "what oil do you use"
Jul 1st 2019, 07:52 AM   #48
 Ralgha's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2012 Ninja 250, Tiger 800
As stated above, ABS is for the panic grabs and other braking mistakes, and it can most definitely save your ass when you need it.

Also, Shell Rotella T6 is the only oil you need.
Jul 1st 2019, 09:02 AM   #49
 VeritasImageryNW's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Allyn, WA

  '06 HD Street Bob, '85 Yamaha FJ600, '99 Honda CBR600f4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralgha
Also, Shell Rotella T6 is the only oil you need.
Actually I prefer an Extra Virgin Olive Oil.
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Jul 1st 2019, 09:22 AM   #50
 Texasl's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Northeast Olalla

  07 Guzzi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
@Texas

You saying you can stop faster without abs is a bit entertaining.

A stopping “test”, you know when your trying to achieve the minimum distance, is done in a controlled environment. Always.

Theres a thing you teach called panic breaking. You know when your about to get in an accident and you have a 1/2 second to perfectly apply brake pressure. This is when ABS will save you. You should know also that in most cases it’s not about stopping distance, but more about keeping the bike upright and under control, ya know finding that escape route. I still know ol timers though that won’t text....

Do you teach riders to ride without ABS Texas? Because my instructor told me 5 different times during my class to sell my bike and get something with ABS. Really curious about this.
"Panic braking" is when you allow yourself to get into a situation where you get surprised by something and you "grab and stab" the brakes as opposed to squeezing and pressing. I teach people to avoid panic braking like the clap. If a rider applies the brakes up to the point where the tires are approaching lockup, AKA "threshold braking," it is more effective than hammering the controls to the point where ABS kicks in. ABS is the protective device for when you have screwed the pooch, protecting the bike from you and in the process protecting you from yourself.

As for your theory that it isn't about stopping distance but keeping the bike under control while searching for an escape path is, IMHO, more fertilizer. If you are on final approach to a crash (not "accident") then you have failed to do due diligence in establishing a good visual lead. Your brain cannot even process the information that the poop has hit the ventilator in a half second.

I wonder why your instructor told you to get rid of your bike and get one with ABS. Could it be that you were struggling with quick stops?
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Jul 2nd 2019, 06:38 AM   #51
 Texasl's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Northeast Olalla

  07 Guzzi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
Nope. That’s the part I aced and she actually told me to slow down. I was stopping faster from a higher speed than anyone in my class. I really focus my skill building on stopping. I really like to practice quick stops. But I also had way more experience than anyone in the class and wouldn’t had have to had take this class had I decided to transfer my endorsement years back.

She told me to get a bike with ABS because they are safer to ride. Just because someone is able to stop faster in a (once again), controlled environment, doesn’t mean it’s better in a real world scenario for 95% of the riders riding these machines.

Anyway getting back to my point...
We all panic and we all make mistakes and nobody including you and myself are perfect no matter what our experience is. Therefore, modern day electronics like ABS is safer for motorcycles on the street. If you disagree then go explain your theory to all the manufacturers who include ABS on their bikes. Maybe ask them why they are doing it.
I never said ABS was a bad thing, I said that reliance on ABS as a primary option as opposed to learning good emergency braking skills and managing your visual lead so that you don't get surprised.
Jul 2nd 2019, 08:35 AM   #52
 Parilla125's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  SeaTac

I have been riding for over 50 years and have owned a whole lotta different motorcycles. I have done both controlled emergency braking and "You screwed up" panic stops during that time. I think one of the main things that contributes to bad panic stops is a rear brake that is 'too good'. Well, that and people that learn to use 'mostly' the back brake. Bad, bad, bad.
ABS is not a bad thing. Same with coordinated braking systems (on the street for 'normal' driving) that figure the front/rear braking percentages for you.
Performance riding is a whole different ballgame where those systems might cause problems. For the commuting rider on a regular day to day grind they would be good to have, me thinks.
Jul 2nd 2019, 03:21 PM   #53
 MMcN49's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Small Island Surrounded by Puget Sound

  07 Buell XB12STT, (Two) 12 Suzuki DR650 SE 72BMWR75/5 KIA @ 243K
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parilla125
I think one of the main things that contributes to bad panic stops is a rear brake that is 'too good'. Well, that and people that learn to use 'mostly' the back brake. Bad, bad, bad.
So true but easily happens with heavy urban traffic on the daily commute into the "Big City". Over time you almost have to force yourself to use that front brake.
Jul 2nd 2019, 03:55 PM   #54
 chadams66's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Garden Home

  2012 Versys...'83 BMW R80 RT...Suzuki GS 450t
way..way..waayy back in the day riders were taught to almost never use your front brake..largely because front brakes were next to useless at the time...this was by Harley riders mostly because there were no Japanese bikes at the time...early choppers with extended front forks very seldom even had a front brake...
my best friend had such a bike and isn't here with us today because of it...
sadly braking is something too many riders never practice...
Jul 2nd 2019, 04:10 PM   #55
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2019 Nada
abs has saved my ass a couple of times i know of, and probably a few i don't.
and i'm a damn good rider.
and you absolutely, definitively, unquestionably cannot foresee every situation that might develop that would make you need to brake hard/quick.
anyone who pretends to be some kind of Cylon with perfect road awareness is lying.
people have only a scanning awareness that necessarily looks one place AND NOT another.
it's the place you're not looking that the thing that kills you comes from.
every time.
Jul 2nd 2019, 04:12 PM   #56
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2019 Nada
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMcN49
So true but easily happens with heavy urban traffic on the daily commute into the "Big City". Over time you almost have to force yourself to use that front brake.
the rear brake is the parking-lot brake.
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Jul 2nd 2019, 05:15 PM   #57
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Something else to consider. I think it was Keith Code who noted that cruisers often have better braking distance than sport bikes. This is because today’s brakes are often quite good on cruisers and sport bikes, but cruisers are low and long, which means you can apply the brakes harder without fearing a stoppie or high side.
Jul 2nd 2019, 06:20 PM   #58
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
Something else to consider. I think it was Keith Code who noted that cruisers often have better braking distance than sport bikes. This is because today’s brakes are often quite good on cruisers and sport bikes, but cruisers are low and long, which means you can apply the brakes harder without fearing a stoppie or high side.

Perhaps, but tire traction, contact patch and weight transfer all contribute to braking effectiveness. I'd argue that weight transfer to the front is a critical factor to braking in as short a distance as possible.

Not everyone is ready for this dynamic. Any hard braking will transfer weight to the front, removes it from the rear.
A rear-biased bike, such as a cruiser, perhaps this weight transfer results in a 50/50 balance, allowing the rear to be more effective in a rapid/panic stop.

I think Code meant that cruisers may stop better than other bikes, when in the hands the average cruiser rider. The capabilities of a sportbike, operated by an expert, however . . . I don't think there's any argument what's better.

The typical tire on a typical cruisers are narrower and a harder compound than found on sport tourers or sport bikes. Ultra-wide rear tires help, with the obvious tradeoff of turning like a battleship.
Jul 2nd 2019, 11:36 PM   #59
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
I think Code meant that cruisers may stop better than other bikes, when in the hands the average cruiser rider. The capabilities of a sportbike, operated by an expert, however . . . I don't think there's any argument what's better.
Dude, I really hate to pick on you, but could you possibly be more ingorant and arrogant at the same time? Yes, there's plenty of argument. Objective data shows that in the hands of expert rider, for example, Yamaha R6 stops 60-0 mph in 124 feet, while Harley Softtail Heritage takes whopping 132 feet.

2011 Yamaha YZF-R6 Street Comparison - Motorcycle USA
https://www.cycleworld.com/2018-harl...rcycle-review/

It is a statistical wash.
Jul 3rd 2019, 12:01 AM   #60
 307T's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Washington County

  H-D
Meanwhile, back on the original topic, Zhukovskyy will go on trial on homicide charges in November or December.
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