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Jun 26th 2019, 03:49 PM   #31
 307T's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Washington County

  H-D
OK. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you Vaun. My whole point from the start was that this was a tragedy, the families will not likely get enough compensation to cover expenses and there will never be any closure for their emotional pain.

While the court may provide appropriate punishment for the initial carelessness shown, I would hope that there would be some follow-up to find the root cause to the delays of driver histories within and across the states.

Riding bikes has an inherent risk that we all know and accept but that does not dim the realization of the impact of this collision and its affect on both riders and the community at large.

Lawyers, politicians, and jurists will get involved but I, for one, am not optimistic that there will be any significant changes.
2nd Childhood likes this.
Jun 27th 2019, 01:33 PM   #32
 Akdawg's Avatar
 
  Dec 2018
  Goldendale WA

  Classic Sportsters, Triumph & BSA
That was the intent of the original National Highway Transportation Act (think I got that right) from which the CDL licensing system came. Was to create communication betwixt all the state DMVs so clowns like this wouldn't be able to drive with multiple violations records etc. That this guy had multiple DUIs should have disqualified him from driving a commercial rig, a commissioner that allowed him to keep a license should be just as accountable, the employer for hiring someone with that driving record, the employers insurance carrier should have flagged the driver as uninsurable There's a lot of blame to go around here would seem...
307T likes this.
Jun 28th 2019, 08:39 AM   #33
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasImageryNW
Truck was witnessed to be swerving out of control before jackknifing into, and across, oncoming lanes. We're talking a 2 lane country road, probably a 45-50 mph speed limit. At a closing speed of close to 100 mph the bikes don't have to be tight to wipe out a lot of them.
Yes, they do have to be tight.

I'm on a western road trip right now, have passed many groups of HDs, and I see exactly why one center-line-crosser can wipe out 10 of them. A deer-strike would have taken out ten HDs. No space for the following bikes to do anything except ride off the road or ass-pack the downed bike.

The bikes in my group, we keep our spacing. A center-line-crosser or deer strike at the front of our group, only one bike is affected.
The HD groups I see . . . a single pack of 50 HDs would fit in the space between bikes in my group's typical spacing. This is in the middle of nowhere, not in town, not parked at a light, where it's inevitable that the distances become tighter.

The map and photos from the Randolph, NH crash: A rural road, not in town, few-to-no cross streets or traffic, 50 mph zone.

Again, a teachable moment, a pertinent question: Why were those riders so closely packed, that what should have been a two-vehicle MVA, results in a 10-vehicle pile-up/MCI?

Edited by FireDave on Jun 28th 2019 at 08:55 AM
Jun 28th 2019, 06:22 PM   #34
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
Yes, they do have to be tight.
...
The map and photos from the Randolph, NH crash: A rural road, not in town, few-to-no cross streets or traffic, 50 mph zone.
So combined speed of the truck and the motocyclists was at least 100 mph. If they were spaced 50 feet apart, if would take 3 seconds for the truck to wipe out 10 riders.

So you have absolutely no factual basis for your claim. None.
VeritasImageryNW likes this.
Jun 28th 2019, 08:45 PM   #35
 Willow's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Silverdale, WA

  848evo, DRZ400SM, XR100
I have to partially agree with FireDave that "HD riders do ride close together or side by side." In all my outings and MC trips this is pretty common. That said, hard to say on this particular group how they were riding.....

Personally, I like HD groups riding close together or side by side.......Then I can pass them ALL in one big "Swoop"........easily enough!
Jun 29th 2019, 07:14 AM   #36
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Four seconds is wildly unrealistic. I have been on many PNW Riders group rides and tested the standard two-second rule in a staggered formation. (More like one second.) Most rides do not maintain two seconds, though we stick with staggered, which is good.
Jun 29th 2019, 07:14 AM   #37
 Akdawg's Avatar
 
  Dec 2018
  Goldendale WA

  Classic Sportsters, Triumph & BSA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
Riding side by side is not unsafe, in fact itís safer in most cases. Grouped up in formation is another topic.

What is tight? Less than 4 seconds? We need to discuss facts and not opinions. Saying that they were ďtoo tightĒ is simply an opinion. An opinion based from nothing but speculation which is even worse.

You guys canít forget about skill and machine performance. HDís canít stop or turn so you have that combined with riders that ride twice a month... Thatís a big generalization, but compare that to a rider who rides everyday on a performance bike with TC and ABS.

And sometimes shit just happens... I wasnít involved in this accident, but sometimes you just canít win. I put zero blame on any and all of these riders no matter their speed or position. Even though I wasnít there, I bet if the loser driving the truck slept in that day, the accident would of never happened.
If... the big if. If he'd a slept in perhaps we'd be reading about the soccer mom and 6 kids in the mini van killed by this creep and subsequent comment on whether was she distracted by kids? cellphone? were her brakes working?. Calling BS... it was caused by an IRRESPONSIBLE DRIVER and a FAILED SYSTEM pure and simple. M/C brothers and sisters happened to be there at the wrong time...RIP
Jun 29th 2019, 08:30 AM   #38
 Texasl's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Northeast Olalla

  07 Guzzi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
Riding side by side is not unsafe, in fact itís safer in most cases. Grouped up in formation is another topic.
Giving up half of your lane, therefore half of your escape and maneuvering options is safer? That would be a negatory there, Pig Pen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
What is tight? Less than 4 seconds? We need to discuss facts and not opinions. Saying that they were ďtoo tightĒ is simply an opinion. An opinion based from nothing but speculation which is even worse.
I'll give you this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
You guys canít forget about skill and machine performance. HDís canít stop or turn so you have that combined with riders that ride twice a month... Thatís a big generalization, but compare that to a rider who rides everyday on a performance bike with TC and ABS.
As a long time motorcycle training professional, I can assure you that your postulation is not fact, but somewhere between opinion and fertilizer. In the hands of a competent rider modern motorcycles can approach 1G of braking without ABS. When the ABS kicks in it actually increases the stopping distance.

As for the idea that a H-D cannot turn; I've seen Road Glides devour non-cruiser bikes in corners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregon Motorcycle
And sometimes shit just happens... I wasnít involved in this accident, but sometimes you just canít win. I put zero blame on any and all of these riders no matter their speed or position. Even though I wasnít there, I bet if the loser driving the truck slept in that day, the accident would of never happened.
Jun 29th 2019, 05:41 PM   #39
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
So combined speed of the truck and the motocyclists was at least 100 mph. If they were spaced 50 feet apart, if would take 3 seconds for the truck to wipe out 10 riders.

So you have absolutely no factual basis for your claim. None.
50 feet apart at 50 mph equals about .6 seconds of spacing. Not enough space, not enough time, obviously not enough for those poor riders in NH.

The closing speed of the opposing vehicle is irrelevant, except that it, most likely, caused to initial impacted bike to stop intantaneaously. The result? The following bikes were too close and all met the same fate. The typical, recommended following distance, at highway speeds, is 3 seconds. Had these bikers been adhering to that recommendation, it's likely 6 of the 7 would still be alive.

I've been to hundreds of bike wrecks, traveled 100,000 miles or more on my own bike. No factual basis? WTF are you talking about?
Jun 29th 2019, 06:13 PM   #40
 Akdawg's Avatar
 
  Dec 2018
  Goldendale WA

  Classic Sportsters, Triumph & BSA
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
50 feet apart at 50 mph equals about .6 seconds of spacing. Not enough space, not enough time, obviously not enough for those poor riders in NH.

The closing speed of the opposing vehicle is irrelevant, except that it, most likely, caused to initial impacted bike to stop intantaneaously. The result? The following bikes were too close and all met the same fate. The typical, recommended following distance, at highway speeds, is 3 seconds. Had these bikers been adhering to that recommendation, it's likely 6 of the 7 would still be alive.

I've been to hundreds of bike wrecks, traveled 100,000 miles or more on my own bike. No factual basis? WTF are you talking about?
None of us were there, therefore, none of us know. When the NHTSA report comes out we might be able to comment intelligently on the whole sad scene for all the good it'll do. Right now I'm looking up the GoFundMe site and slip a few bucks....
Jun 29th 2019, 11:17 PM   #41
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
50 feet apart at 50 mph equals about .6 seconds of spacing. Not enough space
What is proper spacing on a group ride in your opinion?
Jun 30th 2019, 08:49 AM   #42
 Texasl's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Northeast Olalla

  07 Guzzi
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
What is proper spacing on a group ride in your opinion?
The standard minimum is 2 seconds behind the bike directly ahead and 1 second behind the bike staggered ahead. If the riders are operating in a heads up manner and looking well ahead this will give them a 2 second reaction, as opposed to response, time.
Jun 30th 2019, 12:55 PM   #43
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Aprilia Scarabeo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasl
The standard minimum is 2 seconds behind the bike directly ahead and 1 second behind the bike staggered ahead. If the riders are operating in a heads up manner and looking well ahead this will give them a 2 second reaction, as opposed to response, time.
Ok, so let's say they are staggered 1 second apart doing 50 mph, and there is a loose trailer across all the lanes moving toward them at 50 mph. It will take 5 seconds to hit all riders. More if they brake, but what good braking would do in that situation?
Jun 30th 2019, 02:19 PM   #44
 
  Mar 2016
  Seattle

  '14 KTM Duke 690, '18 BMW R12RS, '05 BMW R12ST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasl
The standard minimum is 2 seconds behind the bike directly ahead and 1 second behind the bike staggered ahead. If the riders are operating in a heads up manner and looking well ahead this will give them a 2 second reaction, as opposed to response, time.
The inherent problem with a reduced separation because of staggering in the lane: It falls apart if a bike goes down. The down bike is no longer staggered, thus the following bike is now only 1 second behind, directly behind, a bike that is down and decelerating more rapidly than expected.

The recommended following distance of 3 seconds: For groups of bikes, particularly those who ride in a spirited fashion, as I/we always do . . . the separation should be greater than three seconds. For all the reasons you can think of, but mostly for the reasons you cannot predict.

Such as a 50' long pick-up/flatbed trailer combo driven by a 23-year-old drunk.
Jun 30th 2019, 02:33 PM   #45
 Texasl's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Northeast Olalla

  07 Guzzi
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Ok, so let's say they are staggered 1 second apart doing 50 mph, and there is a loose trailer across all the lanes moving toward them at 50 mph. It will take 5 seconds to hit all riders. More if they brake, but what good braking would do in that situation?
And statistically, how often does that happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave
The inherent problem with a reduced separation because of staggering in the lane: It falls apart if a bike goes down. The down bike is no longer staggered, thus the following bike is now only 1 second behind, directly behind, a bike that is down and decelerating more rapidly than expected.

The recommended following distance of 3 seconds: For groups of bikes, particularly those who ride in a spirited fashion, as I/we always do . . . the separation should be greater than three seconds. For all the reasons you can think of, but mostly for the reasons you cannot predict.

Such as a 50' long pick-up/flatbed trailer combo driven by a 23-year-old drunk.
If a rider does not detect problems until the bike right in front of him crashes I would venture that they have not done due diligence on visual lead.
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