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Feb 15th 2016, 04:24 PM   #16
 
  Jan 2016
  Spokane

I'm gonna do it over regardless, I'm just trying to get a feel for how chowdered my engine might be. When I started it I had to keep about 5% on the throttle to keep it running. On a cold start it ran without any throttle input for a minute or so then died. Can I check if my valves are bent while I'm fixing the timing? I assume if any valves got bent their clearance would go to shit?
Feb 15th 2016, 04:47 PM   #17
 jedijesus's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  02 R1
Clearance will be bigger, and you can always do a leak down test.

Your timing is clearly off, the surging is a strong indication. Ignition is trying to make up for cam timing.

Also, when you are putting the chain back on, make sure you leave slack on the correct side, which is the tensioner side. So when you pull it up over the first cam, make sure there isn't an extra link down below that gets pulled tight when the crank spins and puts the exhaust cam out of time. I've seen that over and over. I've literally watched the person spin the crank and nothing moved because the chain wasn't installed correctly on the cam sprockets.
Feb 15th 2016, 05:08 PM   #18
 cgt1229's Avatar
 
  Feb 2016
  Bellingham

  Suzuki
Know nothing about modern bikes or shims, but isn't their a reference in the manual to number of pins (cam-chain) between each camshaft sprocket? Or a diagram showing the link on the camchain vs. the lines on the frame and which chain pin lines up with those lines?
Feb 15th 2016, 05:41 PM   #19
 
  Jan 2016
  Spokane

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedijesus
Clearance will be bigger, and you can always do a leak down test.

Your timing is clearly off, the surging is a strong indication. Ignition is trying to make up for cam timing.

Also, when you are putting the chain back on, make sure you leave slack on the correct side, which is the tensioner side. So when you pull it up over the first cam, make sure there isn't an extra link down below that gets pulled tight when the crank spins and puts the exhaust cam out of time. I've seen that over and over. I've literally watched the person spin the crank and nothing moved because the chain wasn't installed correctly on the cam sprockets.
I was mostly going off of sharpie marks on the timing chain for timing for this reason, because that way when the CCT was installed it would pull everything into alignment. I checked the timing after I installed it, but clearly my work was far from perfect. Always time to do it right the second time..
Feb 15th 2016, 07:06 PM   #20
 jedijesus's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  02 R1
Don't worry about the chain orientation. The only thing that matters is the cam orientation to the crank. A good indication is the #1 cylinder lobes point away from each other
Feb 15th 2016, 07:37 PM   #21
 
  Jan 2016
  Spokane

Alright, I'll bear that in mind when I do it again. Also, I do remember that my camshafts were originally 180 degrees out of orientation. So instead of the IN marks matching up with cylinder 1 at TDC, the EX marks lined up. Should I reinstall how it initially was or how it should be...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgt1229
Know nothing about modern bikes or shims, but isn't their a reference in the manual to number of pins (cam-chain) between each camshaft sprocket? Or a diagram showing the link on the camchain vs. the lines on the frame and which chain pin lines up with those lines?
The timing marks are on the side of the sprockets that face the frame, so you're pretty much looking at them from straight above or directly underneath.
Feb 15th 2016, 08:17 PM   #22
 jedijesus's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  02 R1
So you pulled it apart when it was NOT at tdc... No big deal.

Pull the cams and put #1 piston at tdc according to the marks, then put the exhaust sprocket in the chain, and as you're putting it in rotate it so you pull the slack up. You'll have to do it a couple time so it lines up right. When you put the intake cam in do the same thing with the chain against the exhaust sprocket. That way the slack in the chain is on the tensioner side. You'll have to line the sprocket up via trial and error till you get the timing marks lined up right.

When all else fails, watch lots of YouTube vids and get the FSM, they're usually pretty detailed.

Also needs to be pointed out... It's tdc #1 FIRING.

Edited by jedijesus on Feb 15th 2016 at 08:20 PM
Feb 15th 2016, 09:39 PM   #23
 
  Jan 2016
  Spokane

Ill have to double check, I remember I brought up the weird camshaft timing last winter and redkat said it was possible for the camshafts to be installed 180 degrees off. I was definitely at TDC since I could check all the valves on cylinder 1.

Example: Manual says to align "1/4" on timing sprocket with the split in the crank case. Done. Then it says to check cylinder 1, inlets on cylinder 2, and exhaust on cylinder 3, when the IN marks on the camshafts line up. But, when the IN marks line up all of the aforementioned valves are being opened by the camshafts, but all of the others can be checked.

I have the factory service manual, I think something just got messed up since I had to tear it down, but new shims, recheck, realize I can't do basic math and bought thicker shims instead of thinner, then do it all again. Start to finish it was a few weeks. Might have gotten something confused.

#1 firing means the camshafts get installed so that all the valves on #1 are closed, so the camshaft lobes aren't touching the buckets. Is there some way I could have messed that up? Pretty sure #1 was at TDC with all valves closed when I pulled it all apart. Even if #4 was at TDC firing it still should work though, as long as the camshafts go in in that orientation, right?

I understand the basic concepts of engines but the finer details like timing are still kinda fuzzy to me, so this is as much a learning experience as it is a task.
Feb 15th 2016, 10:24 PM   #24
 
  Jan 2016
  Spokane

Camshafts were oriented like this before I got to it though. I know the previous owner didn't do it because if he had every Allen bolt would be stripped. I'll take pictures when I tear it down, maybe I'm just confusing myself.
Feb 16th 2016, 12:44 AM   #25
 jedijesus's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  02 R1
If the cams were a full 180 out you'd be getting combustion through the intake and it be spitting and popping like crazy. It sounds like your valve adjust is off and you're a tooth or two off of one or both cam sprockets.
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Mar 27th 2020, 06:32 PM   #26
 
  Mar 2020
  New York

Sorry to necro post. I have the same issue with an 05 Ninja 636 after doing a valve adjustment. Mine makes nearly the same rattling horrible sound except mine seems to idle fine. Ever find a solution? I know this is a 4 year oold post and im probably talking to myself, but hey worth a shot. Video below.

Mar 29th 2020, 07:46 PM   #27
 jared p's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  here

  there
Hopefully you didn't criss-cross your mm and inches on your feeler gauges, that's a surefire way to get it wrong.
Mar 30th 2020, 12:07 PM   #28
 
  Jul 2016
  tigard

  2013 Ninja 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by jared p
Hopefully you didn't criss-cross your mm and inches on your feeler gauges, that's a surefire way to get it wrong.
Yeah, it sounds to me like really loose valves. If you're using inch feeler gauges and the valve clearance measurement is in MM's you'd end up with a really loud valvetrain.
Apr 21st 2020, 11:33 AM   #29
 Kaptainkoolz's Avatar
 
  Apr 2020
  olympia

To the OP your off a tooth on the cam sprocket, its very very tight on the 05/06 engines between the head an the frame. you need an inspection mirror and a straight edge to line the timing marks up properly, once you think you have it check 6 more times, then rotate the engine over by hand to check, starting it up is a sure way to bent a valve or 8.
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