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Oct 30th 2017, 02:44 AM   #31
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
It has been observed that the propensity to quote liberal tropes is inversely proportional to the ability to understand basic economics.

Not that conservatives are better...
Nobody quotes conservative tropes like you do (or has the Clinton hate as pervasively as you do). So yes, at least some conservatives are no better.

And I understand economics quite well. That is why I read your tripe several times to see if there was anything sensical in it.

Edited by Transported on Oct 30th 2017 at 08:56 AM
Oct 30th 2017, 11:48 AM   #32
 albatrosscafe's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Issaquah

  2015 Yamaha FZ-07
I have more than gotten my fair share of use out of the parks (I buy the $80 annual pass every year). I went on a 2.5 week trip this past August where I visited ~10 national parks between here and Arizona. Take the fact that I spent $80 for close to 10 days of views, shuttle services, visitor centers, built trails, guides, etc. and compare it to doing other vacation things like going to resorts, skiing, whatever. It is a bargain and totally worth it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FidalgoRob
Trump's proposed budget would cut $272 million from the National Park Service. This fee increase would raise $70 million. Users will pay more and the parks will be even deeper in the hole.
I think this is the what we should be noting here. The NPS has been hurting for cash as long as I can remember. I almost feel guilty getting as much use as I do out of my annual pass. Either way the park services are screwed.
Oct 30th 2017, 11:51 AM   #33
 albatrosscafe's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Issaquah

  2015 Yamaha FZ-07
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
what it needs is to be LTFA.

I support anything that keeps cars out of wild places. the reality of the situation is that those who hike into wild places do little damage and tend to be good stewards. those who drive-in create a huge mess and do all the damage. the infrastructure for drive-in visiting is wickedly destructive and ugly. parking lots. traffic jams. Burger Kings. hotels.

sorry, but at this point in earth's history it is us who represent the biggest risk to...anything.

it should cost a hundred bucks to take a car into a national park, and walking-in should be free and encouraged. trails, little windy paths in the dirt, are YES. highways, massive strips of blacktop and habitat destruction, are NO.
I don't think trying to control visitors by pricing them out works in the long run. The fact is, the population is increasing exponentially, and until people stop having children it is not going to change. These fees raise money for stuff that is popular in Utah (Zion, Bryce Canyon) where they have off-site parking and use shuttle services to restrict vehicle access inside the heart of the parks. These kinds of solutions seem more effective to me than just raising the cost and hoping less cars come through.
Oct 30th 2017, 03:39 PM   #34
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by albatrosscafe
wordswordswords...population is increasing exponentially, wordswordswords
United States - Birth rate - Historical Data Graphs per Year

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.6754c8cfd137

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/h...rate.html?_r=0

"In 2016, the fertility rate in the United States was the lowest it has ever been.

There were 62 births per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44, down 1 percent from 2015. There were 3,941,109 babies born in 2016."
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Edited by Sentinel on Oct 30th 2017 at 03:41 PM
Oct 30th 2017, 03:53 PM   #35
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
The point is the national parks are only getting more used and part of that is because it was an affordable recreation.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethi...e-popular/amp/

https://espnfivethirtyeight-files-wo...=90&strip=info

Edited by Transported on Oct 30th 2017 at 03:55 PM
Oct 30th 2017, 11:48 PM   #36
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
Nobody quotes conservative tropes like you do
I would ask you to quote one, if it wasn't so hopeless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
And I understand economics quite well. That is why I read your tripe several times to see if there was anything sensical in it.
If this is true, feel free to ask questions, I'll explain.
Oct 30th 2017, 11:49 PM   #37
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by albatrosscafe
These fees raise money for stuff that is popular in Utah (Zion, Bryce Canyon) where they have off-site parking and use shuttle services to restrict vehicle access inside the heart of the parks. These kinds of solutions seem more effective to me than just raising the cost and hoping less cars come through.
Raise fees high enough, and this becomes a viable business proposition.
Oct 31st 2017, 01:44 AM   #38
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
I would ask you to quote one, if it wasn't so hopeless.

If this is true, feel free to ask questions, I'll explain.
That's OK, professor. Somehow I don't think your expanded explanation of current US economics would add much to the discourse.
Oct 31st 2017, 10:39 PM   #39
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
Nov 1st 2017, 02:23 AM   #40
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
If we are quoting the famous:

“If people cannot write well, they cannot think well, and if they cannot think well, others will do their thinking for them.” ~ George Orwell, Politics and the English Language
Nov 1st 2017, 04:33 AM   #41
 galenernest's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Beijing

  Honda CBF190R
I urge everyone to comment on these fees here: https://parkplanning.nps.gov/project...rojectId=75576

Or if you feel that an old-fashioned letter carries more weight on the matter, you can mail comments to:

National Park Service, Recreation Fee Program, 1849 C Street, NW, Mail Stop: 2346 Washington, DC 20240.

Quote:
Olson also said the park service is encouraging people to submit official comments on the proposal, instead of just commenting on social media. A 30-day public comment period will run from Oct. 24 to Nov. 23 on a park service website.
My personal view is that I can appreciate small rises in fees but that tripling the fees in one year is too steep of an increase. Also, depending on the park, I would support more cost-cutting measures and cuts to services in these parks rather than increasing fees and limiting access.
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Nov 1st 2017, 05:29 AM   #42
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Quote:
Originally Posted by galenernest
I urge everyone to comment on these fees.
Done
Nov 2nd 2017, 10:05 AM   #43
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
A1 on NPR did a report on this today:

https://the1a.org/audio/#/shows/2017.../112585/@00:00
Nov 3rd 2017, 06:24 AM   #44
 galenernest's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Beijing

  Honda CBF190R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
A1 on NPR did a report on this today:

https://the1a.org/audio/#/shows/2017.../112585/@00:00
Alright, I'm about 10 minutes into the radio show now. I've learned that less than 10% of the funds for our national parks actually come from entrance fees. They are already, broadly speaking, 90% funded by tax dollars. Edit: National Parks are just 1/15th of 1% of the federal budget.

Also, despite anecdotal evidence here and there, the vast majority of national park visitors are higher-income.

I'm going to keep listening, but I wanted to get these two points into the thread before I forget. Thanks for the link, V!
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Edited by galenernest on Nov 3rd 2017 at 06:59 AM
Nov 3rd 2017, 08:18 AM   #45
 Texasl's Avatar
Moderator
 
  Jan 2016
  Northeast Olalla

  07 Guzzi
Pontification from the old hippie

Quote:
Originally Posted by galenernest
Also, despite anecdotal evidence here and there, the vast majority of national park visitors are higher-income.
I think that those numbers may be driven by the remoteness of many of the parks, which, with no nearby population centers, skews the demographics towards vacationers who have more time to recreate, ergo more discretionary leisure time. When the park is more convenient for people to make a day or overnight excursion I can see the demographics being more homogenized. Here in Washington alone Sunrise, Paradise, and Hurricane Ridge are easily accessible from many urban areas as a nice day trip. The same applies to parks like Joshua Tree and Crater Lake.

In the outdoor recreation community the discussion comes up as to how to expand the demographics of the people enjoying more active adventures, and it usually circles back to making the opportunities more enticing. The fiscal impact is a large portion of that equation. While there may be a bit of sticker shock when a family has to pony up $30.00 to get in, that can be more readily budgeted in by carrying family snacks in lieu of shack bars and other concessions. Imagine the unfair impact on that same family when the toll more than doubles. To the person making $15.00/hr that is over half of one days pre-tax wage, and rapidly becomes prohibitive.

It's the sliding scale of economic impact; people on the lower end of the economic scale are disproportionately impacted, as opposed to the well off, whose discretionary budget may exceed many folks day to day living budget. As much as it gags me to agree with some of the partisan accusatory language of turning the National Park system into a country club system exclusionary to the less affluent, some times even they get it right.

On the local level, we have to consider the consequences on local resources. The family which would have no problem with the $30.00 fee for entry and campground access could very well opt to visit one of our already overloaded state parks for their weekend "camping" trip. The net result is that the system pain has not been eased, merely pushed off to the local area.
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