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Oct 28th 2017, 10:18 PM   #16
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
what it needs is to be LTFA.

I support anything that keeps cars out of wild places. the reality of the situation is that those who hike into wild places do little damage and tend to be good stewards. those who drive-in create a huge mess and do all the damage. the infrastructure for drive-in visiting is wickedly destructive and ugly. parking lots. traffic jams. Burger Kings. hotels.

sorry, but at this point in earth's history it is us who represent the biggest risk to...anything.

it should cost a hundred bucks to take a car into a national park, and walking-in should be free and encouraged. trails, little windy paths in the dirt, are YES. highways, massive strips of blacktop and habitat destruction, are NO.
Agree. Besides, how would they even try to charge fees for walking into a national park?
Oct 29th 2017, 04:29 AM   #17
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
Dumb examples - those are akin to insurance, not to the usage fees.



What common good is served by poor people (who pay taxes) subsidizing relatively affluent people (who have free time and good cars to drive to national parks) entry tickets?

Nonsense. People who have free time, a good car and gas money to get there, can afford the tickets.



It looks like Trump lives in your head rent-free already. What in the world does this diatribe have to do with anything?
Who do you suppose is responsible for this increase in fees ultimately?
Oct 29th 2017, 08:43 AM   #18
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
Who do you suppose is responsible for this increase in fees ultimately?
What difference, at this point, does it make? (tm)

But if you insist, I'd guess some third level flunkie in the budget cuts taskforce.
Oct 29th 2017, 08:45 AM   #19
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
What difference, at this point, does it make? (tm)

But if you insist, I'd guess some third level flunkie in the budget cuts taskforce.
Approved by Paul Ryan and then Trump. Exactly.
Oct 29th 2017, 09:10 AM   #20
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
A... how would they even try to charge fees for walking into a national park?
forest cops.

there's always someone willing to be an enforcer for the man in exchange for a paycheck and some trivial authority.

Oct 29th 2017, 09:40 AM   #21
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Stumpy Puddleton

  R1200ST, CB350
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
What common good is served by poor people (who pay taxes) subsidizing relatively affluent people (who have free time and good cars to drive to national parks) entry tickets?
This doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you've heard somewhere that this fee increase will be accompanied by a substantial tax break for the poor vs. those relatively affluent people. I don't see that happening.

Like sales tax, a high fee is regressive, in that it disproportionally hurts the poor.

I came from a poor family; they do go on car trips, y'know. In fact they were the only kind of vacation we got, as compared to my better off friends, whose families flew abroad to resorts, to Europe, etc. A fee on this scale would almost certainly have been a barrier to us. It might have kept us out, or shortened our stay or forced us to drop something else, treat ourselves to fewer other minor luxuries like stopping for pizza or ice cream.

But that's not even the main point. The nature of public property is that it belongs to all of us in equal measure, as part of being a citizen. Linking access to that public property to ability to pay isn't in keeping with that principle. Nominal fees are one thing; they help reinforce a sense of value and cover administrative costs. But supporting the park with high fees makes it a private resort and denies that public ownership.
Oct 29th 2017, 07:10 PM   #22
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpShatner7
This doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you've heard somewhere that this fee increase will be accompanied by a substantial tax break for the poor vs. those relatively affluent people.
Taxes are money, money is fungible. If there is no tax break, then there would be a tax increase which didn't happen; or a deficit increase which will cause inflation which will cause erosion in real wages; etc. Whatever the consequences of more spending, the poor end up paying for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpShatner7
But that's not even the main point. The nature of public property is that it belongs to all of us in equal measure, as part of being a citizen. Linking access to that public property to ability to pay isn't in keeping with that principle. Nominal fees are one thing; they help reinforce a sense of value and cover administrative costs. But supporting the park with high fees makes it a private resort and denies that public ownership.
You would have to define at which point the fee stops being "nominal". Or is it "obvious" to all the "right people"?
Oct 29th 2017, 07:12 PM   #23
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
forest cops.

there's always someone willing to be an enforcer for the man in exchange for a paycheck and some trivial authority.
No, I mean how would they know that I didn't pay the fee and left the ticket on my car's dashboard?
Oct 29th 2017, 07:14 PM   #24
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
Approved by Paul Ryan and then Trump. Exactly.
Somehow I don't see lazy Trump going line by line through the budget...
Oct 29th 2017, 07:25 PM   #25
 Sentinel's Avatar
 
  Jun 2016
  Poor Tortured

  2015 Kawasaki Concours 14 - The Origame Sea-Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
No, I mean how would they know that I didn't pay the fee and left the ticket on my car's dashboard?
When you go backpacking in the Olympics, for example, you have to buy a camping pass and carry it attached to your pack so ranger rick can see it, no different from a plate on your bike/car. they got guys watching for that. Same as it ever was. The forest does not belong to the people. It never did. The forest is more valuable than the people since it does more work and needs less care and feeding. It also makes a lot less trouble - for the king. And that's the bones in this thing. Because we call it something different doesn't actually make it something different. It all belongs to the king. We know that because he can make us pay to use it. How else would you define it? Even if he lets us in for free, he has the power to make us pay. It is the difference between liberty and freedom. Liberty can be revoked. Ask a sailor or a marine. That isn't the Statue of Freedom in NY Harbor. Well, technically it isn't even "Liberty". It's Semiramis/Isis/Mary. That's a different thread though. heh.

Note to homeland security. Not _that_ Isis.

Edited by Sentinel on Oct 29th 2017 at 07:29 PM
Oct 29th 2017, 07:50 PM   #26
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
When you go backpacking in the Olympics, for example, you have to buy a camping pass and carry it attached to your pack so ranger rick can see it, no different from a plate on your bike/car.
But many times, I would drive in, pay, leave the ticket on the car's dashboard, and hit the trails. How would they know that's not what I am doing if I just wander in from the highway? Bigger backpack?
Oct 29th 2017, 08:32 PM   #27
 Transported's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Portland

  2006 FZ1, 1999 R1
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
If there is no tax break, then there would be a tax increase which didn't happen; or a deficit increase which will cause inflation which will cause erosion in real wages; etc. Whatever the consequences of more spending, the poor end up paying for them.
Read it three times. Still makes no sense.
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Oct 29th 2017, 10:29 PM   #28
 WarpShatner7's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Stumpy Puddleton

  R1200ST, CB350
Quote:
Originally Posted by liberpolly
is it "obvious" to all the "right people"?
Is it even worth wondering who you're quoting here?
Oct 30th 2017, 12:18 AM   #29
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transported
Read it three times. Still makes no sense.
It has been observed that the propensity to quote liberal tropes is inversely proportional to the ability to understand basic economics.

Not that conservatives are better...
Oct 30th 2017, 12:19 AM   #30
 liberpolly's Avatar
 
  Jan 2016
  Seattle

  Ducati Diavel, Triumph Street Twin
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpShatner7
Is it even worth wondering who you're quoting here?
It's preemptive quoting. Someone will inevitably step up.

So, at which point the fee stops being "nominal"?
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